30 BR 7 or 10 tangent ojive

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yat3b35

Guest
A quick question for you 30 br shooters. Which is the prefered bullet ojive for 100 yd. bench rest shooting , 7 or 10 ojive? My rifle has a no free bore chamber 1-17 twist and is used for VFS matches. I currently use the 10 ojive Bib 118 gr. and can't seem to get them to shoot as well at 100 as they do at 200. Thanks in advance , John
 
John

I don't buy into the theory that a match bullet designed for 100-200 yard Competition will agg better at one yardage than another. Nothing weird happens between 100 and 200. That is, unless you consider conditions as a "weird" occurance.
As the distances get longer, things like BC and the such start to come into play.
But a good bullet that will agg at 200, will agg at 100, and visa-versa.
I have read some commentary by some very good shooters that you should tune at 200. I do not agree with this. Many times, shooters will settle for big "three's and fours" at 200, because it looks good and you can win matches with that. But that is probably agging at a .200+ rate, not a Sub .200 rate.
That is why I try to get a Rifle shooting as well at 100 as possible, where I can read the conditions at a much more precision rate, and then let it do it's thing at 200.........jackie
 
Thanks Ken , Jackie ,and Dick. I guess I have to do more load developement. At this point 33.0 gr H4198 seems to be the best load for my barrel , but at 100yds (maybe it's me ) the 10 ojive just doesn't seem to be as good as at 200 yds. My 100 yd. group when tested was .110" and 200 yd. it was .102" . This is my first year using the 30br and I see it's promise. I was disapointed to only shoot a 249 -13 x my first shoot at Thurmont Md. when last year I shot my very first match since 1972 with a 6ppc and was able to shoot a 250 8x at 200 yds.
Gotta get used to the extra recoil I guess.
 
Allie Euber 2007 Shooter of the Year shoots 7-3/4 ogive bullets of his own,
I shoot Ronnie Cheeks excellent bullets with a 7 ogive...
As you I had less luck witha 10 ogive..
 
yat3b35 said:
Thanks Ken , Jackie ,and Dick. I guess I have to do more load developement. At this point 33.0 gr H4198 seems to be the best load for my barrel , but at 100yds (maybe it's me ) the 10 ojive just doesn't seem to be as good as at 200 yds. My 100 yd. group when tested was .110" and 200 yd. it was .102" . This is my first year using the 30br and I see it's promise. I was disapointed to only shoot a 249 -13 x my first shoot at Thurmont Md. when last year I shot my very first match since 1972 with a 6ppc and was able to shoot a 250 8x at 200 yds.
Gotta get used to the extra recoil I guess.
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I would call .102" at 200 yards "promising". :D

I know several people, myself included, who can't get 10 OG bullets to perform but 7-3/4 work well.
 
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some barrels love them some don't but if they will shoot at 200, I think they will shoot at 100. You might want to try a little hotter load than 33 grs. Steve
 
Both the 10 and 7-ish ogive bullets perform well in the 30BR....as well as the minimum and near-minimum capacity cases used in HBR class.

If there's one area where I see people getting a bit off track with the .30's it's in the area of neck tension and bullet 'jam'. I can't tell you how many .30's I've seen come alive once the owner starts really putting some neck tension on these things and jamming the bullet hard into the lands.

Neck clearance is another area to look at. While I've had .30's shoot well with .0015-.002 neck clearance, on several occasions I've seen real improvenments with different neck clearance, increased 'jam' and increased powder charges. My 30BR has won a lot of hardware for me....if I told people the neck tension and neck clearance I use, they'd think I was lying. :eek:

These .30's work well enough that it's easy to get complacent and 'settle' for the ho-hum results that a plain vanilla .002 neck tension/.0015-.002 neck clearance/.010 'jam' combo yields.

Don't 'settle'...there's usually more 'goody' there.

Standard disclaimer applies for the odd, freaky .30 barrel that will only shoot with a .001 tension/.030 'jump' combo. ;) -Al
 
Al Nyhus said:
Both the 10 and 7-ish ogive bullets perform well in the 30BR....as well as the minimum and near-minimum capacity cases used in HBR class.

If there's one area where I see people getting a bit off track with the .30's it's in the area of neck tension and bullet 'jam'. I can't tell you how many .30's I've seen come alive once the owner starts really putting some neck tension on these things and jamming the bullet hard into the lands.

Neck clearance is another area to look at. While I've had .30's shoot well with .0015-.002 neck clearance, on several occasions I've seen real improvenments with different neck clearance, increased 'jam' and increased powder charges. My 30BR has won a lot of hardware for me....if I told people the neck tension and neck clearance I use, they'd think I was lying. :eek:


These .30's work well enough that it's easy to get complacent and 'settle' for the ho-hum results that a plain vanilla .002 neck tension/.0015-.002 neck clearance/.010 'jam' combo yields.

Don't 'settle'...there's usually more 'goody' there.

Standard disclaimer applies for the odd, freaky .30 barrel that will only shoot with a .001 tension/.030 'jump' combo. ;) -Al
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So Al ,I promise not to think you are lying ;) but how much neck tention and neck clearance do you use ? I've been using .001" but was gonna try 2 or 3 . I've also been jam seating my bullets . My chamber is a .330" and my loaded round is .328" . John
 
yat3b35 said:
I've been using .001" . . . My chamber is a .330" and my loaded round is .328" John
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John, many of us would call that .002 clearance. Some of us use "per side", but many use "total."

I'm also interested in how much total clearance Al uses. He use to recommend a very tight freebore diameter, so I'm betting it is small -- but I'd only risk a tiny bet, a packet of nabs . . .
 
I cannot, speak for

yat3b35 said:
So Al ,I promise not to think you are lying ;) but how much neck tention and neck clearance do you use ? I've been using .001" but was gonna try 2 or 3 . I've also been jam seating my bullets . My chamber is a .330" and my loaded round is .328" . John
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Al, but I run .004-.005 neck tension on my Hunter rifle. And I am planning o the same for my 30PPC as I get started. As Al said, most 30's like to be tight and jammed. Figure on a "square" jam mark at least.
 
David, you can't really give neck tension precisely in thousandths -- Al anneals his brass pretty often, so those necks are soft, and don't spring back as much with a particular bushing size.

At some point, you just wind up using the bullet as an expander mandrel. Just what that point is will likely vary depending on other factors.
 
I've had good results in my 30BR using .004 total neck clearance and from .004-.005 of neck sizing with .025-.030 of 'jam'. I anneal every 7-8 firings. This keeps the neck tension consistent and the shoulders stay put after being bumped back. Might not be Nirvana for every 30BR, but it's been working well in my junk.

The weather looks decent later this week and I'll finally be able to work with my new 10.5lb. 30BR The Lizard King (pic attached). Since it's worked before, I'll start with the .004 clearance/.004 tension/.030 jam/32.5 of H4198 over the 'most excellent' BIB 118's and my own Dakota B1's of the 117 gr. variety. I don't doubt that the powder will be a bit past the 'full case' mark before the first day is done...drop tubes with restrictors and a tight spring inside are wunnerful thangs.

I've been suffering the indignities and slanderous remarks :rolleyes: of my shootin' pards for breaking in it's barrel 'The South Dakota way' this Winter: Drive outside of town, roll down window, point gun at snowbank, press trigger, drive home, clean gun. Repeat the next day. :D

They just don't understand...... :) -Al

lizardking.jpg
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Great looking rifle Al ! I'm still working on my loads , gotta get that sucker to do better. Fired 40 rounds today of different loads , now 34.0gr H4198 looks ok , loaded up another 40 of them to work with seating depth. Got them all loaded long as I can ,will seat to different depths at the range. I don't trust my powder measure so I load here and run to the range. Hard on fuel millage.
 
Took my rifle to the range today and did some serious work getting the best groups out of it. When I started my load development I looked at the 6mm br site and went from there. I noticed that most 30 br shooters like a heavy jam, I found out today my rig doesn't like the heavy jam. I was jam seating my rounds , and could not approach the high loads without seeing pressure signs. At 34.0 gr H4198 I was getting slightly heavier bolt lift than I wanted.:confused: So with Wilson seating die and Arbor press in hand to the range I went. The first group shot was with jam seating the BIB 118 bullets and I saw the heavier bolt lift. Turned the seater in 1/2 turn , seated the bullets and fired another group. This group was a bit tighter and with less bolt lift problems. I then turned the seater in another 1/2 turn ,and seated another 5 rounds and fired them for group , looking good now :) , tighter group and lessheavy bolt lift . So I thought what the H ,turned the seater in another 1/4 turn and did the same with another 5 rounds :D , no heavy bolt lift and much tighter group . I think I may even be able to go up with the powder charge to get to the upper node and hopefully not see the pressure signs re-appear. So now I have a very slight , if any jam , just enough to see a faint riffling mark on the bullet.
I also used a different sizing bushing , now I have .004" bullet tention instead of a .002" . My ho hummer may turn into a hummer after all .:D Thanks to all who have listened or should I say read my stuff and helped me along.
John
 
So, following the logic of what you experienced, increasing the bullet jam seems ro increase the pressure slightly. And that is usually true. You could likely have gotten the same pressure results by keeping the hard jam & dropping the charge a few 10ths. You might want to try this as well, to see which gives you the most *consistent* grouping.

BTW, I was out testing last Sunday, and could control about 1 bullet hole of vertical pretty much by keeping the same charge, but changing the bullet jam. Of course, this isn't apt to work if you aren't close.

FWIW
 
Charles E said:
So, following the logic of what you experienced, increasing the bullet jam seems ro increase the pressure slightly. And that is usually true. You could likely have gotten the same pressure results by keeping the hard jam & dropping the charge a few 10ths. You might want to try this as well, to see which gives you the most *consistent* grouping.

BTW, I was out testing last Sunday, and could control about 1 bullet hole of vertical pretty much by keeping the same charge, but changing the bullet jam. Of course, this isn't apt to work if you aren't close.

FWIW
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When I reduced the powder charge while jamed , I lost accuracy , my 6ppc doesn't like a heavy jam either , whereas my 6.5/284 likes a very heavy jam. Go figure
 
At our last match due to brain damage and bloody mindedness I ended up with 25 reloads in 'as fired' cases. I decided just to shoot them out instead of pulling the bullets and sizing the cases. I fired a few rounds as foulers and they shot well enough that I used them on 2 targets at 100, 5x and 3x.

I am not recommending this practice but it was eye opening. My current setup has a .330 neck and the loaded rounds measure just under .329 so this tight neck clearance may have some bearing on the results.
 
yat3b35 said:
I found out today my rig doesn't like the heavy jam. I was jam seating my rounds , and could not approach the high loads without seeing pressure signs. At 34.0 gr H4198 I was getting slightly heavier bolt lift than I wanted.:confused: So with Wilson seating die and Arbor press in hand to the range I went. The first group shot was with jam seating the BIB 118 bullets and I saw the heavier bolt lift. Turned the seater in 1/2 turn , seated the bullets and fired another group. This group was a bit tighter and with less bolt lift problems. I then turned the seater in another 1/2 turn ,and seated another 5 rounds and fired them for group , looking good now :) , tighter group and lessheavy bolt lift . So I thought what the H ,turned the seater in another 1/4 turn and did the same with another 5 rounds :D , no heavy bolt lift and much tighter group .
John
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Hi John. Sounds like things are going the right direction for 'ya. :)

One thing in your post got my attention: a Wilson seating die gives .040 of stem movement per each full rotation. A 1 1/4 'total' turn as you did will have changed the seating depth by .050. If the seater was set up to 'jam' the bullet .030 (for example) past the 'just touching' point that means you ended up jumping .020 when you got your best accuracy.

It's the rare .30 barrel that likes that much jump although I've certainly seen 'em. But that's the really great thing about accurate rifle...they tell us what they like. :) -Al
 
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