Wolf Pup / Al Nyhus

C

Charles E

curmudgeon
The success of the Wolf Pup has been well established. Apparently another shooter has, perhaps inadvertently, made another very short neck chambering which shows promise.

So, two questions:

The first is, have you ever tried jumping bullets with the Wolf Pup, or does a jam seem important? If so, given the smaller frictional force available with the very short neck, is the amount of jam restricted?

The second is, can you think of any reason why we couldn't pursue testing of very short necked chamberings simply by using a conventional case (like the PPC), and throating out a barrel so bullet seating mirrored that of the WP? Bullet *alignment* may not be quite as good as with a WP, but everything else would seem to be the same. Or am I missing something?


* * *

If very short necks work well generally, I can think of several applications for competitive BR, both long and short range. For example, a PPC with the body/shoulder pushed forward like the WP would likely have a capacity similar to .30 BR, enabling different powder choices.

That's one of the potential benefits, being able to use very good quality brass while increasing the case capacity to match more/better powder choices.

Another is any gains there might be in bullet alignment/release with the very short neck. I realize this one will require more testing.

I've spent considerable time & money pursuing the benefits of fairly long necks, and finally concluded that there is nothing there. I don't meant to say there isn't an *ideal* neck length; I don't know that. But I'm pretty sure that there is no merit to just having a "long neck."
 
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Charles E said:
The success of the Wolf Pup has been well established. Apparently another shooter has, perhaps inadvertently, made another very short neck chambering which shows promise.

So, two questions:

The first is, have you ever tried jumping bullets with the Wolf Pup, or does a jam seem important? If so, given the smaller frictional force available with the very short neck, is the amount of jam restricted?

Charles, the 'Pup responds to jump/jam the same way a conventional neck length case does. The usual setup is to set the seating stem .025-.030 shorter than 'just touching', for a solid jam/seat. Surprisingly, the shorter neck doesn't act any differently than a longer one when playing with neck tension. I suspect the short neck allows the bullet to 'pivot' a bit more in the neck than normally...which probably helps with alignment. The breech seated target rifles (Schuetzen) had success with this..albeit at much reduced pressures.

The second is, can you think of any reason why we couldn't pursue testing of very short necked chamberings simply by using a conventional case (like the PPC), and throating out a barrel so bullet seating mirrored that of the WP? Bullet *alignment* may not be quite as good as with a WP, but everything else would seem to be the same. Or am I missing something?

No, I really can't. The one issue that needs to be mentioned is neck sealing. Because of the short neck, the pressures need to be high enough to seal such a short neck, quickly. Pooch loads don't work in this case. Another thing to mention is the current Lapua 6BR case. We are experienceing a much higher incidence of longitudinal case splits during f-forming than with previous Lapua brass. Granted, we're asking this case to do more than it was ever intended to do...blowing the shoulder .240 forward during f-forming. But the fact remains that previous brass gave us zero virtually zero failures...so something has changed. It's not an annealing/hardness issue, but rather..I suspect..changes to the actual physical properties of the brass itself.


* * *

If very short necks work well generally, I can think of several applications for competitive BR, both long and short range. For example, a PPC with the body/shoulder pushed forward like the WP would likely have a capacity similar to .30 BR, enabling different powder choices.

That's one of the potential benefits, being able to use very good quality brass while increasing the case capacity to match more/better powder choices.

Another is any gains there might be in bullet alignment/release with the very short neck. I realize this one will require more testing.

I've spent considerable time & money pursuing the benefits of fairly long necks, and finally concluded that there is nothing there. I don't meant to say there isn't an *ideal* neck length; I don't know that. But I'm pretty sure that there is no merit to just having a "long neck."
Click to expand...

It's worth stating that the .085 neck length was not our original intent when coming up with this case. Rather, the neck length was the result of our efforts at producing a minimum capacity case for IBS and NBRSA Hunter competition...without using the standard approach of shortening a parent case. The more we looked at the short neck after Stan had blown a case forward far enough to reach the legal capacity, the more we realized that it may not be a hinderance...and might offer some benefits. Which it did. :)

Whether this transfers direclty to a different case (like a PPC) where the 'setup' for tuning is different than how we run these .30's....I don't know.

Hope this helps. -Al
 
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Charles, for what it's worth, I have been shooting a short-neck, 40-degree improved 6.5x47 in 1000yd for a few months. I had a picture of the Wolfpup hanging on my wall for inspiration, but at crunch time, couldn't bring myself to go that short a neck.

The case has about .185 to the start of the neck/shoulder radius, the bearing surface of the bullet in the sized neck is .150 with my spec'd .200 freebore. My original intention was to increase the 6.5x47 case so I could push a 140 grain to 1000yd velocities with accuracy. I do get mid 2900's with 141 Cauterucio's and Norma 204, and it is accurate, but it's the only combination I found that would work.

The case holds 50.7 grains H2O versus 46.8 of a stock 6.5x47. I need .001 more neck tension than my standard case to keep the bullet from pushing back. I like how it turned out.
 

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Jerrry, one of my interests in the design does have to do with 1,000 yard BR. I've shot the big cases -- of Tooley's series on the .404 case, where the HV is full length,the MHV is 2.75 inches, and the SHV at 2.5 inches, I've used both the MHV and SHV. The SHV is a bit bigger than a .300 Win Mag. The MHV is a bit bigger than the .300 Ackley.

I moved down to a .30 on the 8x68 case, which holds 88 grains water full to overflow. Almost exactly the same as a .308 Norma Mag. The .300 WSM is what, 82 grains water? Going down from there, next stop is the .30/06 AI, at around 72 grains capacity water. Pretty big step. Still, you could probably get there and a bit more with a "wolf pup" .30/284, or 7.5x55 Swiss.

I'm well acquainted with the bigger is better school of thought; I've shot it for 15 years now. Every time I get a little smaller, things get a little better. Good luck with your big 300 Norma, I'm going the other way.
 
I shot a .308 Norma Mag at 1000yds eight-nine years ago, maybe I'm feeling nostalgic with my 30 caliber build. Some days, however, I feel like chucking it all and joining the Dasher craze.
 
Charles: Another trait of the short neck is how it 'shows' pressure signs. My normal load for this case is 38.0 of H4198 with 117-125 gr bullets for a m.v. of 3140-3160, depending on the day. Pretty stout for a 45.5 h2o capacity case.;)

But the sidenote to this is I can run the powder charge to over 41.0, get zero pressure signs and end up in the high 3,200's for velocity. Somewhere north of 41.0, the primers simply fall out of the case...though no 'signs' of pressure are ever seen.

This trait has remained the same with 3 different rifles (mine and Stan Ware's) and 8 different barrels to date. Cut or buttoned makes no difference.

Good shootin'. -Al
 
Al Nyhus said:
But the sidenote to this is I can run the powder charge to over 41.0, get zero pressure signs and end up in the high 3,200's for velocity. Somewhere north of 41.0, the primers simply fall out of the case...though no 'signs' of pressure are ever seen.
Click to expand...

Does "signs of pressure" include measuring (w/micrometer) the case just above the web?
 
Charles E said:
Does "signs of pressure" include measuring (w/micrometer) the case just above the web?
Click to expand...

Yessir. Even when the primer falls out...and I mean it literally falls out...the back end of the case doesn't measure any bigger than normal.

My dirt clod engineering belief is that a 6mm variant of this would show pressures along the line of what we'd normally expect as the charge weight gets up there. -Al
 
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