Wind, wind and more wind

H

Hambone

Guest
We all know this is one heck of a subject that takes time and effort to master. But just of late I seem to be going backwards in my attempts to beat the demon breeze. To a point where last weekend I had a case of the yips.

My question is in trying to read and allow for the variables can it get to be a case of information over load.

Prior to this year the group of guys I shoot.22BR with have been mostly relying on home made wind flags made from surveyors tape and VHS video tape.As we tend to shoot for fun and as a group so no harm done. But the bug took hold big time late last year and we sent off for some dedicated .22BR wind flags.

Damn! those thing do make you twitch. There many a trick in getting them set up right that I know from my c/f br shooting but this .22BR game is different. For a start they are easier to see and read.

So how do you go about getting them just right and when do you shoot and how. Do you aim off or dial. Do you wait for the wind. Being in a temperate climate mirage isn't to frequent a problem but for those where its a frequent problem how do you choose to deal with it.
 
I'll take a stab at this until somebody that really knows chimes in. I use four flags and two wind-a-cators evenly spaced from bench to target. Exact setup is not critical as long as you can see them all. More critical, is to remember to actually look at them ALL before shooting. I dial in the prevailing condition and hold off for variations in that condition. What typiaclly burns me is that one flag that isn't quite right. Just a little change on the flag can equal a big change on target, sometimes. Sighters, lots of them, are your friend. Be patient and wait for your condition, easier said than done.

Ken
 
Hi Hambone,

Ken is being modest, he is one of the better shots in our game.

My setup is slightly different than Ken's. I use five wind flags and one Wind Probe. I space the flags slightly closer to each other near the bench, with the probe about one-third of the way down range. I slightly off-set the flags to the left, near the left edge of the target, so I can see them a bit better.

I do click in a condition then hold off slightly to compensate for wind velocity. I try to keep the dot touching the ten ring. No radical hold offs. Be patient, wait for the condition. You can aways shoot faster near the bottom of the target, by then you can take advantage of what you have learned in the first few rows.

As Ken said, take lots of sighters and learn from them.

Hope this helps.

Al
 
Confidence in your equipment is going to go A LONG WAY towards getting better at shooting in the wind. If you have a gun that bucks the wind that helps a heap! I put my flags out when I get home and will watch them for as long as I can. I want to learn MY flags and see what effects them. Find the prevailing condition and dial your scope for it, don't hold off for it. Then wait for that condition and shoot it and see what happens. I am a total newbie at this game but, this is what I did and it has served me well, thus far.
Isaac
 
A couple of thoughts from a centerfire guy...
Start with a couple of flags, and when you become comfortable with them you can increase the number. Stop trying to produce wallet groups when you practice. Instead, do a lot of experimenting to see how much a change is worth by holding center when you know the shot will not go there, to learn where a given condition will take the bullet. Flags can be too complicated, making it difficult to remember what they look like, while waiting for a condition to return (for most, a better strategy than holding off). Picking the right condition to start a group in is huge. I often get suckered into starting a group in an easy condition that will not return often enough, if at all. And above all, remember, shooters that have photographic memories are cheating;)
 
Hi Guys,

When I gave my answer to Hambone's question I was thinking a Match time limit. I shoot IR50/50 3 gun that has a 30 minute time limit and IR Unlimited that has a 20 minute time limit. 30 minutes is a long time, 20 minutes goes by in a flash.

If you are practicing then you can wait out one condition, take your time, enjoy the day. But under the gun of a time constraint you don't have that luxury. Penny can shoot reversals and do quite well. I'm not that smart. I pick one wind direction that seems to predominate and hold slightly off one way or the other to compensate for velocity changes. As I said earlier, my dot most always is touching the 10 ring. Not to say I don't shoot a reversal...when I am feeling particularly brave. :eek:

Al
 
Al; I agree with you 100%. Only this I would add, is Practice, Practice, Practice. He who does that will continue to get better ar what they do. I also have an old saying " The Harder I work, the Luckier I get". Seems that the three P's and hard work go together.
 
I've found that there is a point of over-thinking the flags. If I am trying to decide how each flag is going to alter the bullet's flight, I have no confidence in my analysis of what the wind is doing and I can't pull the trigger --- information overload.

"Go with the force" seems to be how it works. With lots of practice it seems that one just "knows" what the optimal conditions are and when to pull the trigger.

I've learned a lot from the Hadfield's about patience.

Michael
 
Mike

I know exactly where you're coming from. It happened to me this last weekend. Got the yips and decided to quit. Card had gone to rats poop anyway. LOL

Funny thing was when I checked it against a few of the other lads cards we had all had problems. You just never know at the time. Should have powered thru perhaps.
 
Hambone,

Finish the card. If you're having problems, most of the others probably are too. I'm guilty of giving up on a card too, I tend to power thru, shooting all conditions and guessing where the shot will go. Let me say that I'll never make a living guessing ages at the state fair. Once while shooting at a match I shot a 232 with the sporter. I was not happy at all with my performance. Turns out that was the winning score, next competitor had a score off 226, you never know. I will say that the conditions that day were somewhat less than stellar. However, everybody shoots the same conditions so hang in there.

Ken
 
Wind may be one of the most discussed subjects in RFBR. It kind'a tells you something about how frustrating a bit of wind, a tiny breeze even can effect the flight of the bullit.

Here are a few more random thoughts in no particular order of importance...

If your flags have both tails and wheels don't get fixated on the daisy wheels. Watch those tails!

Be aware of the angle of the flag. A wind that is coming across the range at 45 degrees has more push than if it were coming across at 25 degrees. I think this is something a lot of shooters miss.

I have a saying, "Watch your back trail". It's hard to explain, but what I mean is pay attention to you last couple of shots. If they show a pattern of misses or near misses, lets say the last few shots are cutting the ten ring at 5 o'clock. It probably means the condition has changed or you are not reading the condition right. Don't make the same error time after time. Stop and think, go to the sighters, figgure it out. I don't know how many times I have looked at my target after the match and said to myself, Why didn't I see that pattern and correct my hold?

Hambone, what neck of the woods do you live in? Just curious.

Al
 
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Al Hadfield said:
Wind may be one of the most discussed subjects in RFBR. It kind'a tells you something about how frustrating a bit of wind, a tiny breeze even can effect the flight of the bullit.

Here are a few more random thoughts in no particular order of importance...

If your flags have both tails and wheels don't get fixated on the daisy wheels. Watch those tails!

I have a saying, "Watch your back trail". It's hard to explain, but what I mean is pay attention to you last couple of shots. If they show a pattern of misses or near misses, lets say the last few shots are cutting the ten ring at 5 o'clock. It probably means the condition has changed or you are not reading the condition right. Don't make the same error time after time. Stop and think, go to the sighters, figgure it out. I don't know how many times I have looked at my target after the match and said to myself, Why didn't I see that pattern and correct my hold?

Al
Click to expand...

The tails are an item I have pretty much ignored over the years and have paid for it when conditions are light, in particular. I have both daisy and ball flags and even when using the ball flags, have not watched the tails much. I know better but, for some reason, just seem to ignore them.

I have had my best results when conditions are tough for everyone and not so well when others are doing well. I keep telling myself "keep Digging". It sometimes works out. Another problem for me is becoming too cavalier when conditions are light. I come to believe that the rifle is a lazer I guess but I often get my butt handed to me in a switch when in that mode. Another problem for me is looking over the flag closest to me. That will hurt ya bad if one misses a switch of it.

I believe the person with the best memory wins most of the time.
 
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And sometimes "wind" isn't wind. Small misses, what changed? Though he's a CF shooter, Al Nyhus has made a couple posts of the effects of bag setup and scope adjustment. It is CF, but there are some obvious parallels, and Al is a very accomplished score shooter.

Neither of these are recommendations on how to shoot. Rather, diagnostic checks one could do when things don't seem right. All too often we blame the wind, or scope, or this or that for a small miss, and the real culprit is something else. I remember a World-Class shooter from Florida once joking "I once had a scope problem it took three barrels to fix."

The point of the "scope check" for me is that even if a scope tracks well, after a change, the first few shots often don't print as tight as when it has settled down. Al gives actual numbers. Being a lazy fellow, I never did the test, but concluded to never adjust my scope without firing about 5 sighters to let things settle. Amazing how much better my wind-reading got. (I may adjust a scope in the warmup if there is one, never after that.)

This goes past the bag/rest setup we're talkin' about..but try this if you're really interested in seeing what's going on: in good conditions that let you have a dead-center hold, run a Score target by moving the gun in your normal way. Then, put up another target and with a dead center hold on the sighter...run the entire target by never changing your aiming point on the sighter and just making the elevation and windage changes with your scope.
Click to expand...

Recently had a chance to do a pretty interesting test on a BR scope I have. I won't go into the all the details of how I came to have this scope, the brand, etc...that's another story all it's own. But it's from a very well known and popular scope maker and you see a lot of these on BR rigs.

The test rig was my 30BR which is well proven. The test was to check the scopes ability to maintain it's zero as well as it's tracking ability. The first group was a 10 shot group just so I could get a better handle on the scopes ability to hold it's zero. Subsequent groups (tracking test groups) were 5 shots. Final group was again a 10 shot group..again to verify the scopes ability to hold zero. Test conditions were absolutely perfect...3-5 mph winds with a light overcast and 65 degrees. We get about 4 days a year like this out here. I actually took time off work as I'd been watching the NOAA weather forecast.

Test #1: Group size: .153 (10 shots) One hole, no 'Mickey Mouse' ears.

For test #2, I went 'up' 1" in elevation, then back down the same amount. Theortically, the group should be in the same spot as the .153 'control' group. This group was a 5 shot group.

Test #2: Group size: .524. All vertical with the last 2 in the same hole.

For test #3, I went right 1" with the windage, then back to the original spot. This group was a 5 shot group.

Test #3: Group size: .422. All horizontal. Last 3 in the same hole.

For the last test, a 10 shot group was fired again. We were now back exactly where I started with the windage and elevation adjustments. The last 3 shots on the windage test (test #3) went into the same hole, so the scope seemed to have settled down well enough internally to give an accurate test of it's ability to hold it's zero.

Test #4: Group size: .184 (10 shots). One hole, no 'Mickey Mouse' ears.

In both instances of the elevation and windage changes, the changes were made outward from the tension of the erector tubes springs, then back toward the springs thereby 'loading' the erector tube against the spring tension and giving it every chance to 'repeat'.

So, it seems that while this scope holds it's zero well, it doesn't track worth beans. I know that's not a new revelation, but I thought it would be interesting to post it anyway.
Click to expand...

Edit:

As I read this over, I realize the point of the first quote may not be entirely clear. It has to do with bags & bag setup. Here's the link:

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?62004-Changing-p.o.i-on-target&highlight=
 
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TangoTwo said:
Hambone,

Finish the card. If you're having problems, most of the others probably are too. I'm guilty of giving up on a card too, I tend to power thru, shooting all conditions and guessing where the shot will go. Let me say that I'll never make a living guessing ages at the state fair. Once while shooting at a match I shot a 232 with the sporter. I was not happy at all with my performance. Turns out that was the winning score, next competitor had a score off 226, you never know. I will say that the conditions that day were somewhat less than stellar. However, everybody shoots the same conditions so hang in there.

Ken
Click to expand...

Ken

I had hit the wall that day. Hence the inset of the yips. You know when your 2/3rds the way thru and your sat there thinking "for the life of me I can't figure this darn thing out" . and just mark it off as one of thoses days where asses and elbows need to be labelled.
 
Something in those posts that were removed caused me to experience an epiphany of sorts. Every time a "wind" discussion arises there are those that directly address the wind and those that include additional contributors to errant shots. I mulled that over a bit and thought about that looooong post I typed yesterday concerning the value of a great rifle vs the frustration of a mediocre rifle. To my chagrin. the power blinked off just long enough to kill it dead (!@$%^&*) before I had a chance to post. Probably a good thing.

Al Hadfield said more than he thought he was saying (maybe not) when he said "my dot most always is touching the 10 ring". The deal is, if you don't have a rifle that shoots like Al's rifle then you can hardly discuss wind effects with Al. That may not make any sense at all and if it doesn't I'll leave this for thought...

The laws of physics don't apply to bullets from different rifles - those laws that we know to apply.
 
Dialing in VS Hold off

This is an interesting discussion. I see where most here dial in the scope for the prevailing conditions and slightly holding off the ten ring. When conditions change, do you dial in again on the sighters or just wait out the conditions? Is there a reason not to hold off more the ten ring?
 
The subject of wind has probably been hashed over as much as any subject on the forums, but never hurts to revisit such. I use a somewhat basic setup of 7 flags and if it's a wind over approx 5 mph I use 2 Gene Beggs Large Probes. I want get into the layout I use but one thing I do is place 2 flags approx. 5-10 ft in front of the bench one to the left and one to the right and I don't pull the trigger unless those 2 flags are doing the exact same thing. Not sure if it's been mentioned but one needs to watch there neighbors flags to the left and right of them, unless they are on the end, then I usally put two flags out side of such to catch switches in the wind and not when I'm pulling the trigger. I never move my scope settings and hold off whatever is required to try and hit the dot. I don't practice in the sense of going to the range and just practice unless a match is scheduled. This is just because I'm lazy and don't want to pack up my gear plus ammo is expensive. Now with that said I will get there early and work on my game and or I'll practice during the match. How's that, I'll find a condition I like but I'll work other conditions on the sighters for two reasons. If your running out of time and your condition just isn't there one may need to change what they are working due to the time. I try not to shoot on letups but get suckered in a lot. I like a right to left wind more than a left to right. I really hate a head on wind that's jumping back a forth from 10 - 2 o'clock. I generally pay more attention to the flags closer to me, but have been in conditions where more attention had to be placed on the ones closer to the target. I also modify my flags that are further from me but won't get into the details as to make this to long of a read.

Anyway that's some of my take on doping the wind.

Les
 
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Hi bloodhound,

Yes, this is an interesting discussion. Thanks for starting this Hambone. I think we should have an annual Wind Shooting discussion. New people are coming on board all the time and shooting in the wind is a big bug-a-boo to most new shooters. Most old shooters too! Besides, us old timers often change tecnques and have different ideas as time passes. We are trainable!

I realy hate, I mean realy Hate to switch from my original chosen condition. To try to dial in a new condition half way through a match gets this ol' boy some confused. It most alway seems when I abandon the original condition it comes back.

My reason for not liking to hold off the 10 ring is you loose the fine aiming point. Holding into the 6-7-8 ring or even in the black of an IR50/50 target. When I hear someone bragging about holding in the black and nailing a 10 all I think is this guy has a hell of a lot more luck than I.

I know some will disagree with what I say, there are a lot of better BR shooters than I that do thing differently. Lets hear from them. My friend Harry Deneen one said in a Wind 101 posting that he waits for the tunnel in the wind. I didn't understand what he was telling us...now I do.

You made some very good points Les.

Al
 
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