Wind Probe/Indicator

[Chism G]

"When NOT to Shoot"

Well .I have been looking at wind flags for about 14 years now. I can say ,without reservation,that I don't need a Probe to tell me when NOT to shoot. My flags tell me when NOT to shoot,I just don't believe them. I am convinced that sometimes my flags just plain lie. Over the years,I have become what I call "Flag dependent" That is, I try to watch my flags as close as my 70 year old eyes will allow. Sometimes the bullets just don't go where my flags say they should. Something keeps telling me that there is a,yet to be discovered, wind flag out there that is 100% reliable. I'm still searching.

I have watched probes at registered matches,but I am not convinced that the ones I've observed offer any advantage over the traditional style flag. Maybe I just don't know what to look for.
Since I currently have this( new to me) probe design in my possession.I welcome any suggestions on how to take advantage of the technology. (The original purpose of my post)

Over the years I have observed Jerry Hensler using high tech wind reading devices that he designed. They all seem to work. I call him the wind flag guru. It's good to know that somebody is working behind the scene, in efforts to help us get a handle on reading the wind. Thanks Jerry.


Glenn

 

[Apollo]

For me, it is easy to see a change in direction of the flags. It is hard (for me) to see a 3, 4, or 5 mph change in the tails of flags. The probe(s) make this change easier to see. Especially when a condition goes away and then comes back. When the flags/tails look the same as the last shot, but the probe is different from before - I know that I am missing something in the tails and not to shoot.

I hope the probe works for you. It looks like a cool design and very easy to read.

Stanley

 

[mks]

Actually, a computer is not needed at all. All of the system signal voltage is done by setting a knob on each sensor. A simple digital voltmeter will give a relative +/- voltage that is indicative of R/L distance from center. The computer just gives a graphic view of what that signal voltage is doing on a target image. All of the "smarts" are in the sensor setting by the user based on what they feel is the relative value between sensors on the overall signal level. In other words, accuracy is dependent on the shooters wind reading skills. He can simply see the total value of these flags with more precision. Right or wrong, he has preset what he thinks each flag is worth on the total condition. So far, I have not gotten SF4 to work with the ADC due to its extremely low signal voltages that it uses vs the previous versions. No computer for it. Soooo primative!!

You add the voltages together from all flags? Simple, I like it. Could be calibrated to 1 volt = 1 inch of deflection. The voltage total is accurate if the flags are placed at the locations that give equal weight (bullet deflection) to each flag. Easy enough to find the right locations with external ballistics equations. You could set the flags each time with a range finder. One thing a single voltage can't do is tell the shooter how much up/down the POA should be shifted for tail/head winds. Wind direction and speed information is all that is needed to calculate both left/right and up/down corrections. I suppose you could use some sort of voltage divider to get the cross wind and tail/head components, but it is not a linear division. At that point, maybe it would be time to switch to digital.

 

[mks]

For me, it is easy to see a change in direction of the flags. It is hard (for me) to see a 3, 4, or 5 mph change in the tails of flags. The probe(s) make this change easier to see.

Stanley

After having used my combination flags/probes (one of each on each pole) for a while now, I have to admit that I have to remind myself to also look at the flags. The cross wind deflection is usually the larger problem to worry about, and the probes are reading that. So concentrating on the probes often works. For stronger cross wind of the same direction, it is a matter of dialing in more left/right adjustment along with a (usually) small proportional adjustment up/down. What one has to be careful of is when the probes stay the same, but the flags have switched. You can miss up/down by a surprisingly wide margin in a strong head-to-tail switch or vice versa.

 

[Jerry H]

Actually each flag has a settable voltage output relative to deflection amount. This way the flags can be spaced in equal segments so as to cover all of the segments equally. By using a constant voltage for each, you would only cover the close end which would leave huge gaps in the last 70% of the distance.

 

[mks]

Actually each flag has a settable voltage output relative to deflection amount. This way the flags can be spaced in equal segments so as to cover all of the segments equally. By using a constant voltage for each, you would only cover the close end which would leave huge gaps in the last 70% of the distance.

So you have a display at the bench that has a reading for each flag? And the shooter has to decide which are more important, just like looking at nonelectronic flags?

 

[Jerry H]

Each flag is in series on one conductor of speaker wire pair to the bench, so you read the total signal of all flags summed.

 

[mks]

Each flag is in series on one conductor of speaker wire pair to the bench, so you read the total signal of all flags summed.

OK, I get it now. And you adjust the gain for each equally-spaced flag to weight its contribution to bullet deflection?

When I set my flags, I place them at closer intervals near the bench and wider intervals near the target, to account for the decreasing deflection caused by wind as the bullet gets closer to the target. This accomplishes essentially the same thing.

Thanks,
Keith

 

[Jerry H]

That's it.

 

[Jerry H]

Here is the voltage track representation on a net-book. It has a menu item to adjust the track near null to account for the vertical you mentioned earlier. With a voltmeter just hold up/down on the close to 0 volts readings instead of L/R.

 

[mks]

Here is the voltage track representation on a net-book. It has a menu item to adjust the track near null to account for the vertical you mentioned earlier. With a voltmeter just hold up/down on the close to 0 volts readings instead of L/R.

Very nice!

 

[Andy Cross]

One issue with flags & probes

One issue with flags and probes is that they are below the flight path a bullet will take. A few years ago I placed flags in pairs one beside each other. One at the leagle height and the other at a height placing it in the middle of the target. Then watched. As the ground warmed up the lower flags were doing different movements the the high ones. Sometimes complete reversals of one another. If someone can work out how to place flags right in the line of sight and stll allow you to shoot it will eliminate a real issue. They might even get nominated for the Nobel prize.
Andy.

 

[Charles E]

...They might even get nominated for the Nobel prize.
Andy.

Yes, but the prize wil be for getting NBRSA to change their current rules. The small technical problem you mention is trivial compared to that...

It won't be the peace prize, that's for sure. Maybe the one for literature?

 

[Chism G]

Hmmmmm

One issue with flags and probes is that they are below the flight path a bullet will take. A few years ago I placed flags in pairs one beside each other. One at the leagle height and the other at a height placing it in the middle of the target. Then watched. As the ground warmed up the lower flags were doing different movements the the high ones. Sometimes complete reversals of one another. If someone can work out how to place flags right in the line of sight and stll allow you to shoot it will eliminate a real issue. They might even get nominated for the Nobel prize.
Andy.

So Andy.....Are you saying that..setting flags higher and closer to the line of sight...will eliminate a real issue? What's the issue?




Glenn

 

[Butch Lambert]

Glenn,
He doesn't shoot in Texas. I went outside to duplicate his test. Both of my flags moved the same. I could only get a 6 foot difference in height with my stands. I guess I think the most important thing would be a flag at bullet path height.

 

[Chism G]

Yeah Butch...Its kinda of puzzling, to a Wind Flag Dummy like me. I kinda thought that he might be referring to thermals coming up from the ground as the outside temperature increases. Reminds me of shooting at the Range at Tomball,Tx. At 9:00AM,at the start of a match,the flags are dead still. I mean eeerily still. We call it a trigger pull condition down here in Texas. I shot a .500 group at 100yds. A lots a people shot some big groups. It's not rifle tune. The next match I shot a mid one.

Weird. Where's Jerry Hensler?




Glenn

 

[Jerry H]

Safe at home.

 

[Andy Cross]

Bullet flight path

Glenn,
He doesn't shoot in Texas. I went outside to duplicate his test. Both of my flags moved the same. I could only get a 6 foot difference in height with my stands. I guess I think the most important thing would be a flag at bullet path height.

Yep flags in the bullet flight path. Depending on the terrain of the range the temperature of the day and how much the ground can heat up and cool down you can get quite different flag indications from those placed in the flight path of the bullet compared to those where you would normally place them. Both conditions will influence one another but. I am in the process of designing an thermal IR interferometer that might help deal with this condition.
Andy.

 

[Butch Lambert]

Ok

 

[Andy Cross]

Proof of concept photo

I have attached a jpeg of what a thermal IR interferometer image looks like. This was done as a lash up on peg board for proof of concept. Gota find some way of getting the cost of building one down to something sane.
Andy