Wind Probe/Indicator

C

Chism G

Active member
I recently came into possession of a device/ gadget that looks like a wind indicator. Its called, "IBALL" Custom Benchrest by Barry Edgley. It came with no instructions. I was able to figure out how to to assemble it and set it up at the Range. I set up one of my wind flags to make a comparison of the sensitivity. I experimented with the balance adjustment in an attempt to get the device to indicate wind currents. We had light winds today, 5-10mph. There must be another part that goes with this probe ,that I'm missing. I had to get out my 150mph leaf blower when I got back home to make it indicate. I am not a big fan of probes. I"m Still struggling with the traditional flag design. This indicator caught my eye for some reason. So I decided to see if it would help improve my wind reading skills.

First thing I noticed was,it seems slow to respond in a side by side comparison with my Graham flags. I could not adjust it to keep up with my wind flags. What advice/opinions can some of the wind flag experts give that will convince me to keep this device in my wind flag box.




Glenn
 
Chism G said:
I recently came into possession of a device/ gadget that looks like a wind indicator. Its called, "IBALL" Custom Benchrest by Barry Edgley. It came with no instructions. I was able to figure out how to to assemble it and set it up at the Range. I set up one of my wind flags to make a comparison of the sensitivity. I experimented with the balance adjustment in an attempt to get the device to indicate wind currents. We had light winds today, 5-10mph. There must be another part that goes with this probe ,that I'm missing. I had to get out my 150mph leaf blower when I got back home to make it indicate. I am not a big fan of probes. I"m Still struggling with the traditional flag design. This indicator caught my eye for some reason. So I decided to see if it would help improve my wind reading skills.

First thing I noticed was,it seems slow to respond in a side by side comparison with my Graham flags. I could not adjust it to keep up with my wind flags. What advice/opinions can some of the wind flag experts give that will convince me to keep this device in my wind flag box.




Glenn
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You should be seeing some significant deflection in a 10 mph wind. Two keys to indicators are balance and low friction. Move the lower weight up toward the pivot until the ball swings down and stays there. Now move the weight back the other way ever so slightly until the ball stays up. The balance is now as sensitive as you can get it to be. To test for friction, move the ball to one side a few inches, and then let it go. If it doesn't recenter, there is too much friction in the pivot.

Hope this helps,
Keith
 
The ball does not have enough drag for moderate winds let alone light wind. It will likely work better in a narrow band of heavy winds.
 
Jerry H said:
The ball does not have enough drag for moderate winds let alone light wind. It will likely work better in a narrow band of heavy winds.
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Jerry,as you know, we have some pretty heavy winds,on occasion, down here in Texas. I haven't seen this model in use in our area,that I recall. I need one that will work in all kinds of wind.



Glenn
 
Most flags show angle in most wind velocities. Probes, tails, and vanes have a narrow velocity window that can usually be adjusted. Propellers have a wider range of speeds but some people can not learn to read them and there can significant differences in the designs. As far as "works in all kinds of wind", function, yes. That is not likely in conventional flag design as far as readability though.
 
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Jerry H said:
Probes ... have a narrow velocity window ...
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My probes, which I think respond to wind speed about the same as Beggs', read from 1 mph up to about 15-20 mph. I don't know the actual upper speed, because I haven't calibrated them to wind speed, but rather to bullet deflection. At wind speeds that say "don't shoot" to me, the probe is still reading changes in velocity. I have occasionally seen them maxed out, but not often. If that is a narrow range, then I am not qualified to shoot in Texas!:D
 
They may well max at 15-20 but can you tell the amount difference between an actual measured 15 and 20 mph wind speed at flag height? If not, that range is not usable. It is more likely very readable below 8 mph actual wind speed. Also, there is a severe non linearity with the change in angle of attack on a tail, probe, or vane. Gene's probe scale was equal segments on his scale. Are yours spaced to account for this non linear display? If so, then maybe they have a wider than normal range of readability. I have never seen them, so I don't know about your design. Depending on whose design and how it is weighted, the useful window of speed change that can be interpreted is about 7 mph in sub 10 mph actual wind. Propellers are slightly wider, again this varies a lot more or less depending on design and friction. Side note, the highest weather channel reported winds I ever shot BR in were not in Texas, but Iowa. Ask Robinnette about that one!
 
User Guide/Instructions

Glen
It seems that the instructions have not been provided. The pic looks like you have all the pieces so I will send you some instructions and that should sort out most of the issues mentioned. If you require further assistance after using the instructions please email me.
They are electromagnetically damped and while there are limits to everything the damping has extended the useful range and have performed well from light to fairly strong conditions.
Barry Edgley
 
Varying the electromagnetic resistance could certainly compensate for the inherent linearity issue. A novel approach indeed! Good idea.
 
Barry....Thanks for the instructions. I will be in touch.


Jerry...Thanks for the lesson in wind flag design. Wish I understood all the tech talk. There's not enough talk about Wind Flags and their important contribution to shrinking Aggs.




Glenn
 
Jerry H said:
They may well max at 15-20 but can you tell the amount difference between an actual measured 15 and 20 mph wind speed at flag height? If not, that range is not usable. It is more likely very readable below 8 mph actual wind speed. Also, there is a severe non linearity with the change in angle of attack on a tail, probe, or vane. Gene's probe scale was equal segments on his scale. Are yours spaced to account for this non linear display? If so, then maybe they have a wider than normal range of readability. I have never seen them, so I don't know about your design. Depending on whose design and how it is weighted, the useful window of speed change that can be interpreted is about 7 mph in sub 10 mph actual wind. Propellers are slightly wider, again this varies a lot more or less depending on design and friction. Side note, the highest weather channel reported winds I ever shot BR in were not in Texas, but Iowa. Ask Robinnette about that one!
Click to expand...

Jerry,
Below is the estimated response of the probes, which shows the nonlinearity you are talking about. The actual response I think is a little more nonlinear. But the nonlinearity, even if it were not so conveniently supplied by the velocity squared drag on the indicator and the trigonometry of the pivot, is something that I would try to design in. I want the probe to be most sensitive in low wind, but still be readable in moderate wind. That way, it is giving me the best information in the type of winds I most often shoot, and still some information in the unusual winds. I can think of maybe two matches in four years where frequent gusts pushed probe deflection above 80 degrees. We almost never get steady winds. The strategy was to wait for less deflection, which almost always worked. I guess that makes two states I have no business shooting in! :D
Wind probe deflection.jpg

Oh, and to answer your question, the difference in deflection between 15 and 20 mph is about 3 degrees, so marginally readable. But the difference between 10 and 15 mph is about 8 degrees, which is easily readable. I rarely pull the trigger in this much wind, so it isn't important to me. What is more important is to see the switches, and to see them as soon as possible.

Cheers,
Keith
 
You have a lot more understanding of how probes function than most! My SmartFlag1(string/strain gauge sensor) was extremely accurate in the crosswind at all wind speeds but lacking in a +/-30 degree wide area of the null. While probe types have a similar weakness, I went ahead with SmartFlag2 (probe/pendulum sensor) which gave up some accuracy in the crosswind but handled the quarter to null wind better. SmartFlag3 added a supplemental direction sensor and was never really evaluated properly, but I feel it was better all around than #2, particularly around the null. SmartFlag4 is a speed sensor(anemometer) feeding a direction sensor using a similar and proper angle nonlinearity effect of actual ballistics(small direction change near 90 means nothing while it means a lot near null). Since I don't shoot anymore, a West coast BR shooter has it currently under evaluation. I should hear something in a few weeks. None of these will beat #1 in a crosswind at all speeds but I hope #4 can beat it overall in all other combinations of winds. You almost never get a consistent crosswind from barrel to target anyhow. Most of the time, there is some sort of mixture, and of course as soon as you get it figured out, it changed again! I just like to keep looking for a better mousetrap.
 
Science or Superstition?

I truly wish that I understood what these things do. I have used them and find they some how help. I seem to be missing the science in this thing. I am not sure there is more superstition than science involved here.

Concho Bill
 
I have found that a probe, when used with wind flags, will tell me more of when not to shoot than when to shoot.

Stanley
 
What???

Butch Lambert said:
Glenn,
I guess no good deed goes unpunished.
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Where is the punishment??? I haven't used them yet. The deed has nothing to do with my curiosity. When I figure out how to set this device up, It may show me something that improves my scores. I'm learning something from this discussion that I didn't already know about wind flag technology. Mr Edgley has been very helpful with instructions. I'm still optimistic about the application and I assure you that this probe will be put to use at the next match that I attend.





Glenn
 
Jerry H said:
SmartFlag4 is a speed sensor(anemometer) feeding a direction sensor using a similar and proper angle nonlinearity effect of actual ballistics.
Click to expand...

IBS only allows electronic flags in Heavy Bench, but NBRSA and UBR don't mention them at all, so I could use them for some matches, but not others. That was my reason for developing non electronic flags. But I am intrigued by the possibility that outputs from electronic flags reading speed AND direction could be fed into a computer program to give the shooter a simple, accurate, real-time display of where to aim based on the integrated effect from all the flags. One of the most difficult things about flags is trying to estimate POA when each flag is doing something different, and switching so fast that there is not time to punch it into a calculator. A computer program could do this faster than the time it takes to look from the scope to the computer screen.
 
Actually, a computer is not needed at all. All of the system signal voltage is done by setting a knob on each sensor. A simple digital voltmeter will give a relative +/- voltage that is indicative of R/L distance from center. The computer just gives a graphic view of what that signal voltage is doing on a target image. All of the "smarts" are in the sensor setting by the user based on what they feel is the relative value between sensors on the overall signal level. In other words, accuracy is dependent on the shooters wind reading skills. He can simply see the total value of these flags with more precision. Right or wrong, he has preset what he thinks each flag is worth on the total condition. So far, I have not gotten SF4 to work with the ADC due to its extremely low signal voltages that it uses vs the previous versions. No computer for it. Soooo primative!!:mad:
 
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