Will Someone Give Me A Simple Answer?

K

Kimberguy2004

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I've read several threads and even asked several questions pertaining to the Remington 700/.308 long throat issue and I'm still as much in the dark as when I started. I have a Remington 700 5R .308. It's a new rifle and I'm breaking it in, fire-forming brass and looking for an acceptable load for it. I've read a lot of very interesting information and received some very informative answers to my questions, but most assume that I know a lot more about this than I really do. I admit I'm a longgun newbie. If you just tell me I need to try a different style bullet, or use a heavier bullet at a lower velocity, that doesn't help, as much as I do appreciate you guys taking the time to answer my dumb questions. So, I guess I need to ask for some specific information. The rifle has a long throat, and unless I have the barrel set back and rechambered, I'm going to have to live with that. Where do I need to start in looking for something this gun likes? You guys who are successfully shooting the Remingtons with the outrageous long throats... What bullets are you having the best accuracy with? How are you seating them? Are you seating to specified overall length and trying different powders and tweaking the charge to tighten groups? Are you starting by touching the lands then changing seating depth to what works best? If so, how much contact should there be between bullet and case neck to maintain proper tension without having to crimp, because some bullets touching the lands almost fall out of the case. I'm also assuming, possibly erroneously, that whatever I use is going to have to be jumped because of the throat length. I don't have a problem with seating a bullet out to the lands and exceeding the overal length spec and shooting them single shot as long as there's enough of the shank in the case for adequate neck tension. I know what works in your gun may or may not work in mine, but there has to be a place to begin without having to buy one of every bullet and powder in the world. This is really starting to take the form of a major excercise in futility.
This is a bench gun that's probably only going to be used in club varmint factory class. I don't expect one-hole accuracy with a factory gun, but I'd like it to be as good as it can be, and I know some of you guys have to be shooting some really good groups. I just need a place to start..
 
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you asked for it

I have a .308 Remington that has a very long throat but shoot very good.

I shoot only Sierra 168 Match Kings thtat are touching or jammed to a point if I don't fire and try to extract the cartridge the bullet will be left in the barrel and powder will spill all over the place, get into the locking lugs and down into the trigger!!!!!!

Moly bullets, 42.0 grains of Varget, GM210M primers, at 2450 fps.

I won an Egg Shoot with this set up.

You most likely will never be happy with the factory barrel and would recommend replacement and never concider setting the factory barrel back. Not worth the time and money, just to discover another problem. Unless you are doing the work yourself and want to learn in stages as to what really works.
 
Berger 168 match & Varget.....Laupa cases and Fed match primers, If you cant get it to shoot with that combo, chances are it aint gonna shoot with anything......assuming the bedding, scope, trigger and handloading techinics are all in order
 
one other thing

I have a number of Remington 700's.

I have never owned one of the Remingtons that shoot small groups right out of the box as claimed by some!
 
The bullet to use is Sierra's 165gr BTHP with 42grs of IMR4064 in Full Length Sized cases with Fed210M primers. Seat the bullet to jam .010. Thats the short answer. The reasons are:

This bullet is easy to reach the lands with. In my Tikka, loaded to 2.810 OAL it is touching the lands, and in my Savage, that same depth is jammed .060. Even with a long throat this bullet will still have plenty in the case while touching the lands. It is also a very accurate bullet. Every .30cal rifle I own shoots this bullet very well.

Seat it to jam .010. With tha cases FL sized, the only points touching will be the bullet in the lands and the case at the boltface. The alignment of factory chambers to their bores has some "tolerance" to put it lightly. If your chamber is crooked, trying to seat at some distance off the lands will drive you crazy, as one day it will shoot ok, the next its all over the place.

Seating into the lands will also drive pressures up, and IMR4064 will give you a good fill volume, be accurate, and not be prone to pressure spikes. You can push this load alot harder, but it wont shoot any better.

I use this method with every factory rifle I shoot. This is as simple as I can make it, hope it helps you out.:)
 
Kimberguy2004: To begin with rechambering even the original factory barrel will most likely put you in something other than factory class at the club. My experience has been factory rifles are each an indivual. Someone elses pet load means very little to you. I have one rifle in particular in 30 caliber with a ten twist that will not shoot heavy bullets as accurate and I have tried a lot of combinations in 30 years. It will shoot 110gr Sierra very accurate under 200 yd. and 125gr Sierra much better than anything heavier. I would start with loads that fit in the magazine and since you will be loading them single they can be loaded with very little purchase. There are a million combinations. H4895 is a powder that will allow down to 60% of maximum load. Some rifles like less velocity and your shoulder will also. Enjoy the trip. Kenny
 
easy now, easy...

Kimberguy2004 said:
I have a Remington 700 5R .308. It's a new rifle and I'm breaking it in, fire-forming brass and looking for an acceptable load for it. I've read a lot of very interesting information and received some very informative answers to my questions, but most assume that I know a lot more about this than I really do. I admit I'm a longgun newbie. I know what works in your gun may or may not work in mine, but there has to be a place to begin without having to buy one of every bullet and powder in the world. This is really starting to take the form of a major excercise in futility.
This is a bench gun that's probably only going to be used in club varmint factory class. I don't expect one-hole accuracy with a factory gun, but I'd like it to be as good as it can be, and I know some of you guys have to be shooting some really good groups. I just need a place to start..
Click to expand...

Friend, grab a cup of cocoa, and lay off the triple-shot espresso for a time.

Everybody knows that Rem 700 rifles have long throats. I edited your diatribe because you need to keep things simpler. :)

Forget all the advanced reloading stuff. Right now, you need to make some rounds and make your thunderstick go bang.

Get some Sierra 168 Matchkings. Get a reloading manual, and I like the Sierra version. Buy some Hodgdon Varget or IMR 4064, and starting at the charge weights (like 42 grains of either one), load some rounds to SAAMI spec per the manual. Make ten rounds at each charge weight, going up, say three tenths or even a 1/2 grain until you reach the max load.

Shoot these loads for groups. Now you have a base line, from which you can start tweaking. If your rifle is sub-MOA, then it's a keeper. If you can find a 1/2 MOA load, then you're in the promised land as far as factory rifles go.

Breathe, breathe, calm down, this is supposed to be fun. Set your expectations accordingly. Good onya. :)
 
Thanks for the responses. Things seem to be a little clearer. I was just so overwhelmed with information that everything seemed to run into itself..

Is there going to be a great difference between the Sierra 165 and the 168 grain bullets? What about the difference between the HPBT and the HPBT Match? One may be easier to obtain locally and I'd rather not have to mail order if I don't needto..
 
If it were mine I'd buy some 168 and 178gn Hornady A-Max. They have a longer bearing length than most pills in the same weight range. This will help get you closer to the lands with some bullet in the case.
It should be possible to find a pretty good load with a good jump to the lands also. These are usually tuned with powder and neck tension variations. In the long run its easier to use the lands if possible.

Get a bunch of Varget and start shooting Audette ladders with those two pills. (200yd Ladders will suffice)
If I were a betting man I'd quess you might even need to go a tad over book data. In my opinion that extra long throat is nothing but an extension of the chamber which means you have more volumn. Be very careful of course.

My starting point would be .020 off the lands. Thats roughly where I've found the A-Maxes like to eventually end up in my guns.

Find the bullet it likes
Find the rough charge weight it likes
Find the rough seating depth it likes
Last but not least try different primers. If your running a stout load drop the charge slightly and work back up.

Now that you have the correct components you can begin fine tuning the load. Thats how I do it anyway.

If nothing works theres always a Savage.
 
The 165gr Sierra bullet that I mentioned is a hunting bullet that has shot very well for me, and the 168gr is a match bullet. Nosler also makes a 168gr BT that shoots great and costs less as well.

The .308 is relatively easy to get to shoot. If your rifle doesn't like IMR4064, Varget, or RL-15 with a 168gr match bullet, then there is a bigger problem that needs fixing.

Good luck
 
What is the minimum case neck to bullet surface contact that should still provide adequate neck tension? I'm neck sizing with a -.002" S bushing.
 
If your loaded round o.d. neck is .002 larger than it is after sizing, that is plenty. Case neck tension is way down on the list of things that need to be addressed in getting a new rifle to shoot IMHO.

You will need to measure this because some bushings will size differently, even ones of the same size.
 
I'm OK with the neck sizing/tension. I was asking how much of the bullet neck needed to be in contact with the case neck to insure enough tension on the bullet..
 
Load 36.6gr Hodgdon Benchmark 150gr Remington Spire Point 2.81"OAL
CCI 200 Primers 1x12 twist 24" Barrel 2345fps 26" 2400fps

Or Try AA2015 38.6gr with the above 38.5gr H4895 168gr SieMK.

Most powders 41.4gr 150gr or 168gr Good place to start H4895, Varget, Benchmark IMR4064 Reloader15.
 
Kimberguy2004: You mention that you are "in the dark" and "need a place to start" - I suggest you GO SHOOT your Remington 308 Winchester and see how it actually does shoot!
I mean YOU have to start somewhere and thats WHERE "I" always start!
I go shoot the Rifle.
Just because your Rifle's throat is "long" does NOT mean you won't be able to obtain very good accuracy with it!
I know - I been there and done that - NUMEROUS times.
On your mission to "START" somewhere I would buy the best components you can buy including Federal Bench Rest/Match primers, Berger bullets and some TOP QUALITY brass of your choosing.
Then I would get a Deluxe Set of Redding dies and buy or borrow a cartridge/case comparator (I use the NECO model) and make sure your hand loaded test rounds are as straight as possible.
I tried to read the posts you and others made but I am not sure if you have actually fired your Rifle or not?
At some point YOU are going to have to do that.
And I suggest you do that as soon as possible with a scope of as much power as you can afford, on top of that Remington!
I own a fleet of factory/hybrid Rifles (of MANY different brands) that have long throats and yet I do not own a Rifle that I consider to be in-accurate!
On rare occassions I have "given up" on obtaining pleasing accuracy with a Rifle and in those rare cases I simply sell the Rifle.
I made the mistake once of selling to a friend of mine, a splendidly accurate Remington heavy barrel Rifle in caliber 308 Winchester. I mean this Rifle shot like a house on fire.
Recoil was a little much for me and my intended uses so I agreed to sell it to him.
The fellow I sold that Rifle to went on to win several metallic silhouette competitions with it!
I still have the loading notes (accuracy results) for that Rifle and it had a "long throat".
Yet, another heavy barrel, all factory stock, Remington I own has a throat length that allows me to seat my 130 Nosler Ballistic Tip bullets for this 270 Winchester Rifle to within .004" of the leades of its rifling!
Its accuracy is ALSO very pleasing to me.
My point here being you are going to have to do the best you can with what you have.
I wish you the best of luck with the 308 and in finding accurate munitions for it.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
 
I sort of concur with what VG said, but rather than building a load first purchase a box of Black Hills match and shoot it, at the end of the box see what your aggregate group sizes are, for either 3 or 5 shot groups, whichever you wish to establish your accuracy standards from. When that is done you have a baseline established, if you build a handload that it better - good for you! If your handload is not as good then you can start changing seating depths, or components.

Black Hills match is pretty much the Gold Standard in across the counter match ammo and as a rule it shoots well in just about any gun, if it doesn't shoot well in your rifle then you may have some rifle concerns, that may not always true but it is more often than not.

good luck - just remember the journey is the fun part.

drover
 
Simple Answer

Google 'Remington 700 5R'. There is an excellent article on this very Rifle, with good load recommendations.........jackie
 
I just came accross this thread. I have a Remington 5r and it shoots great. I have won 3 Factory class benchrest matches with it. The match last weekend I shot a 246. I bought it in December for Christmas. It took a while to work up a load. It likes IMR4064 and Varget. It now shoots one hole groups at a 100 yards. When I started shooting it I was only getting 1 inch groups. Keep working with it until you reduce the group size. Also watch the carbon build up. I have a problem with this and it effects accuracy. I use the Remington M24 cleaning procedures. I clean for carbon first and then for copper. I use J&B Compound to really get the carbon out. You can feel it in the barrel as a rough spot with the brush as you clean it. I think you find this is really a fine shooting rifle. I am going to try to shoot F Class TR. I hope it works for F Class as well as it has for benchrest.
 
308

the 5-r as an eleven twist. you should get "good " groups with regular dies; 4064; varget or re-15. a 168 or 175 bullet. adjust the trigger ( see" remington crisp" on the internet ) . for me a good trigger and a good scope mean a lot. the 308 does not burn barrels so you can go through a lot of components getting a load to your liking with out worrying about another barrel . unlike say a 6.5-284. or you can have a krieger put on and yer big groups will be .5
 
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