Why is it hard

Read post #2 and 3.
I used the FL die once. Then went to the Lee collet die. About 5-6 firings back to the FL die.
I say he is fire forming every time he sizes the brass. He moves the shoulder back .002". Boom the head expands.
AL, GG, Boyd
Everything you typed is standard for custom chambers.
And Yes. I have read TB's book. And I have a Harrell die for my 6ppc. One set of brass 28 reloads.
And a set that came with the gun. The head stamp is almost unreadable. 50-60.
 
OK, with all of the different views as to what is causing my problem, what is the perfect solution in solveing it. What could I have done different from day one. And yes, I know, It's a Savage. Maybe sending some fired cases in to have a custom die made? Would that have been the way to go? Im not sure either. But I guess that after trying all of the different ways Im going to find out. Many good ideas out there, now I have to use the one that is going to work. But first I have to find it. Thanks all.
 
GG. If the die is larger than the chamber then nothing moves. Brass does not fit.

Mac it all works. But, for a short period of time. Just have to buy brass more often. If the brass is sized .0005" than it might last a little longer.
 
macv ...

Take a gander at this and see if it makes sense:

Full-Length Bushing Dies and Die Conversions

Profile: Jim Carstensen is the owner and lead engineer for JLC Precision, in Bellevue, Iowa. With over a decade of precision machining experience, he specializes in crafting custom dies and die conversions. JLC Precision also performs expert gunsmithing on both benchrest and varmint rifles.

Custom Honing the Conversion Die
When I make a JLC conversion Die, I measure your fired cases, and then start honing and polishing the die core to match. I will periodically stop to resize a piece of brass and check it against a fired case. This can take a long time, depending on the size of the chamber.

I feel that *** the front of the case just below the shoulder should be resized about .0005", and the base resized .001". I also think the shoulder, or datum line needs to be pushed back no more than .001". ***

This is what I strive for compared to brass that has been fired several times. It is the honing process that I do that makes the JLC conversion different and (I believe) better, than a standard Redding Type S full-length bushing die. The Type S full-length bushing die works the same way as my conversion does, in the sense that it sizes both the case body and the neck (by way of bushings). However, the Type S die, out of the box, will not be honed to fit your fired brass. Mine will.

These resize dimensions stated above (.0005" shoulder reduction, .001" base reduction); will work well with all chamberings I have encountered.

Resizing with a die with the correct shoulder/base dimensions, and using it every time you reload, will result in the longest case life and easiest bolt operation.

*** If the action bolt is clicking or popping at the top of the bolt lift, it indicates that the brass is too big near the base [the web]. Throw the brass in the garbage. ***

*** If the bolt closes and opens hard throughout the whole stroke “without the pop at the top,” the shoulder needs to be pushed back. ***

A "Full Custom" Die -- The Total Solution
I can't run any reamer into the body of a factory die to change the dimensions. Dies are too hard to modify this way. If a die that is small enough to begin with can't be found, I can make a full custom die. I have total control over the amount of resize and where the resize is done at. I make a hardened bushing die with a decapping system. I work off fired cases for that chamber. This will cost around $200.00, but it will be a perfect die for the chamber for which it was made.

Designed to be used after every firing, the dimensions will give the ideal amount of shoulder bump and body-sizing, no more, no less.

JLC Precision (Jim Carstensen)
jlcprec@netins.net
13095 450th Ave
Bellevue, IA 52031
Shop phone: (563) 689-6258, cell: (563) 212-2984 :)
 
Mac what I gave you was not the solution but a way to find what the problem actually is then you can find the solution.
 
One thing I've found in three .223's, two Savages and a Remington is that lighter loads will give stiff bolt lift, while loads that are pretty stiff (couldn't resist!) don't. I've noticed that same thing with some other rifles too. I have NO idea why this is, but the cure is to tip the powder cannister up a little more. As I remember the OP said that the load he was using wasn't hot, so my suggestion would be to increase the load some and see if the bolt lift and extraction improves. Nothing wrong with warm loads as long as you're not blowing primers or expanding primer pockets prematurely.

Although it's certainly possible for the FL die to not be squeezing the case enough, although you say they chamber easily after sizing, it may be that your loads are too light. In a factory chamber I'd just about guarantee that the die body is smaller than the rifle's chamber. I've had some factory rifles that caused fired cases to look like pregnant guppies, and anyone's FL die would squeeze them back down.
 
Loads in question

The last two loads that I was testing, the best out of 6 from my ladder test, was 26.2 and 26.5 grs. of N540. This is with useing the Sierra 69 gr. HPBT. My loads were spaced with 3 tenths gr. btwn. each load. I even had some hard bolt openings at the lower end of my test rounds. But then I also had a few that came out easy on the high end of my testing. It was mentioned earlier that I might have used some cases that were exposed to higher pressure. But even at 26.5 grs my primers were still OK. Starting to flatten a little bit but not to the point that told me that I was running to much pressure. I have micked my cases from base to nk. before firing.after fireing and after sizeing. At this time I do not have those measurement with me but I do have them written down. Will post them later. New die coming on Thursday. Can't wait. Will also post new dimentions after useing it. Maybe I'll get easy in, easy out. :D
 
Either I am missing something or some have just not read the post.
The OP said that the cases all chambered and fed easily prior to firing.
Some had hard extraction.
Since the dies affect the case before firing and all chambered fine how and why would it be the die? Or the die being too close to the chamber size?
Since it was only a few cases and not a majority why would it be the die being too close to the chamber size as this should create a problem chambering a freshly loaded round and not one that chambered easily before firing.
If it chambers fine then that means the die did its job enough. Hardened or not it was still sized enough that the round chambers fine. Its only after the firing that he is having trouble extracting.
 
Amamnn,

You can adjust your chamber for minimum headspace using the Savage action and a headspace gauge, but this is not the same as having a minimum chamber, which is actually referring to diameters of the chamber, not the length, per se. The problem in this case is that the brass is growing in the body diameter more than the sizing die is reducing.

Scott
 
New die arrived. Loaded 6 rds and if the rain holds off for a bit, I will have the chance to see if it will do the job for me. I can see that it has reduced the area just forward of the web about 2 1/2 thou. Before with my other dies there was always that little ridge showing. Now the case is smooth and straight like it should be, Was able to set my bump back somewhere btwn.1 1/2 to 2 thou. from a fired case. I can live with that. But only upon fireing these rounds, will I know for sure. Will keep you posted.
 
All went well. The loaded rounds went in easy, came out the same way. I think that small base die did the trick, just like GG said it would, and some others as well. Now I must go to my " go to load " to see if those groups have changed with the new case dim. Don't think it should, but one never knows until it's tried. Thank you all for the help. The article by German Salazar was very good as well. I learned a lot with this posting and can now maybe help others from it. Everyone have a great day and a good summer. Good shootung.
 
This is an excelent thread. It explains a problem that many folks encounter. I have always thought it rediculous to throw away perfectly good brass simply because it causes a click. I ended up with the same solution; small base dies. I have an expensive custom die that does not size my cases properly but the Small base die did the trick. Now to see how many firings I can get before the cases need to be small base resized again.

I first tried the Small Base die with a 308 I use to shoot. It worked fine for that. I then forgot about the die after I sold the rifle. I had a bunch of 30 BR brass that did not work well in my chambers so I decided to try the 308 SB die on them. What I found was the 308 SB die sized the 30 BR cases very well. I also found that the area just behind the shoulder case body junction was an area that was too big and in some cases, the only place on the case that was too big. It would seem that reamer and die makers are not in tune with regard to sizing that area of 30 BR cases.
 
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Pete ...

Pete Wass said:
It would seem that reamer and die makers are not in tune with regard to sizing that area of 30 BR cases.
Click to expand...

I believe Pacific Tool and Gauge and Harrell's are. They seem to be a good combination. :)
 
Not in my particular experience. :( but it a better combination. I wonder why die makers are so cautious about the amount they make their dies to re-size?

A friend bought a rifle from a mutual friend. The rifle came with the bass and dies, etc. The purcaser commented to the seller that the brass was so tight the bolt closed hard. The seller commented, "SO?". pretty much tells a story I guess.
 
Sounds like neither one of them knew how to resize properly.
 
I am going to try

To back up the SB die a bit and see if I can get it still to work without over sizeing the case. The new die took the base down about 2 1/2 thou. smaller than my other FL "S" die. At the web area, that is. Im going to try to put shims of various thickness under the lock ring and see if will still size the case enough. This way if it don't, at least I won't have to start all over again. The way it is now, it works. But the least amount that I have to squeeze it down will make me even more happy. I have some shim stock around, but I do not remember the thickness of it. Maybe an old feeler guage will work. That would be even more precise. I think. :confused:
 
macv ...

The only thing that's going to happen with the shim under the locking ring is adjustment of the head space / head clearance [what you measure when you measure fired and unfired cases lengthwise at the shoulder].

The shim is going to assist the push downward. You're not going to change how much the SB die over squeezed the cylinder's sides inward at the base or web area .

I recommend purchasing some new brass and then resizing with both dies after fire forming a couple times. See which die then gives you what you were initially looking for. :)
 
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