Why is it hard

M

macv

Guest
sometimes to excract a fired case after it just went into the chamber with ease. No, it was not a hot load. And not all cases were that hard to get out. Had to use my staple gun to tap on the bolt to get it open, covered with a heavy towel of course. The cases were FL sized with a Redd. type S bushing die. Bumped back about .002 after getting a measurement from a fired case. Some cases worked with ease, and others fought me right to the end, of my staple gun, that is. The brass is Lapua in 223 Rem, and this was the 9th loading of these cases. The Rifle, A Sav. 12 Varmint, all factory. Now, the cases that were fired and came out with ease then sized, still worked very easy when trying in the chamber. Now some cases that I had to tap out of the chamber, and then sized, went into the chamber with a little more resistance then the ones that came out with ease. Now, if your sizeing all the cases at the same time with the same die, doing everything the same way, why are some cases still snug going into the chamber. What is happening to the brass that is making this a problem. I even turned my die down every so slightly. Useing my bump guage and added another .001 to the sizeing. O/AL is good to go. I did not want to size down too much and take away the idea of a almost perfect case for my chamber. Any comments? Please.
 
#1 it's a Savage M12. A very generous chamber.
#2 You are sizing WAY TOO much.
#3 The brass has been work hardened. It does not flex back after sizing. Some cases do some don't.
 
The Savage model 12 LRPV is a very nice rifle. It should be great for P dogs.
Looking at my records. I was able to get 5-6 reloads. 77 gn Scenar, w/ H-322.
I might have got more.
But, I have a 6PPC now.
A whole world of difference.
And a lot less frustration. :)
 
macv said:
sometimes to excract a fired case after it just went into the chamber with ease. No, it was not a hot load. And not all cases were that hard to get out. Had to use my staple gun to tap on the bolt to get it open, covered with a heavy towel of course. The cases were FL sized with a Redd. type S bushing die. Bumped back about .002 after getting a measurement from a fired case. Some cases worked with ease, and others fought me right to the end, of my staple gun, that is. The brass is Lapua in 223 Rem, and this was the 9th loading of these cases. The Rifle, A Sav. 12 Varmint, all factory. Now, the cases that were fired and came out with ease then sized, still worked very easy when trying in the chamber. Now some cases that I had to tap out of the chamber, and then sized, went into the chamber with a little more resistance then the ones that came out with ease. Now, if your sizeing all the cases at the same time with the same die, doing everything the same way, why are some cases still snug going into the chamber. What is happening to the brass that is making this a problem. I even turned my die down every so slightly. Useing my bump guage and added another .001 to the sizeing. O/AL is good to go. I did not want to size down too much and take away the idea of a almost perfect case for my chamber. Any comments? Please.
Click to expand...

Slight variations in the brass ductility, that is why reloaders anneal brass after several firings or switch to new stuff...............Don
 
Mac I didnt notice anything in your post about length.
Have you trimmed any cases at any time.
Have you checked the cases that are tight to see if they are longer than others?
All cases are not the same length out of the box either.
 
Well as far as the OAL goes, I am OK there. I have used a chamber plug to find out what lgth. my chamber is and then held back .024 as instuctions stated. And yes, you are right when you say the problem is at the web. After micking the case in several locations, this is where I have found the largest measurement. But, after resizeing, I got the size that I needed to get in order for it to meet specs, but some cases are still a little more snug then I would like to have them. I did notice that upon putting some cases into a Wilson case guage, that some of the cases would stop at the rim. I would have to push them in by hand to make them go all the way in. Then after running them through the die, some would just fall right into the gauge and some needed just the smallest amount of help to go all the way in. I do have another FL guage that I will try next. I think you are right about the cases getting hardened and not springing back.
 
I have never annelled any of these cases. Before I got the S type die, I was only neck sizeing and once in a while I would use a body die to push it back into shape. I was useing the Redd. competition die set. My trouble started after the cases had seen 7 loadings. Maybe it is time to open a new box of brass. Will try the other FL standard die first. First thing in the morning that is. Thanks for all the comments and help.
 
The specs that I was referring to was out off the Sierra handloading book. Yes, I am aware what the Sammi is all about. The small base die just might be my answer to my problem. Guess you did go through this problem a time or two. Everything you said does make sense. One more try tomorrow before placing that order. Thanks.
 
macv ...

Full Length Size from day one! That should solve most problems. Don't forget to lube the outside of your brass before you fireform the new stuff [to prevent stressing the case head area], and make sure you trim it to the proper trim-to length once finished.

Before you get into a Small Base Die speak with Chris, one of the Tech Reps at Redding.

Redding dies are made to MINIMUM SAAMI specs to begin with. I doubt that your Savage action is a minimum SAAMI chamber, more like a standard SAAMI chamber, so you should have plenty of room in that chamber to begin with.

On page 14 of the Redding catalog Redding says that their Small Base [Body, Full length, and Type-S Full Length] dies are "for firearms with CUSTOM chamberings that are TIGHTER than the SAAMI specifications." Going to a body die is going to increase the amble room you already have.

Call Chris first. Redding's number is 607-753-3331 EST. :)
 
The nice thing about a Savage is that you can adjust your chamber for minimum size very easily by using the Sharp Shooter Supply barrel nut wrench and a go gage--of course a barrel vise is a good thing to have as well. Savage has or had a video about this very subject on their website. I was not sure whether they were claiming to have done this at the factory, or just showing you how to do it. In any case, it can be done, and with ease. It is also easy to remove the Savage factory barrel and replace it with something like a Shilen select match barrel. Forster now makes a body bump neck die that you can use much like a FL die except that it resets the neck (to the size of your choice using bushings) and shoulder while leaving the rest of the case alone. It works quite well and can be used with or without an expander button.
 
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"while leaving the rest of the case alone."

In this case that is what caused the problem !

Glenn:D
 
I had similar experience with my Rem 700 6mmBR with Shilen SM barrel. For a long time, I carried a plastic hammer in my box to open the bolt and extract a fired case. Like you, I ran my FL sizer die down as far as possible, but some cases continued to hang up. Finally I bought a small base sizer die, and presto, no more hang ups. Goodgrouper has it right, take his advice.
 
Hi guys, so today I was at it early to try and solve my tight case problem. I went back to my FL standard die and tried it. Did not satisfy me. I then tried lowering my S type die and it did size a very little more (.001 ) But now my shldr. bump is no longer .001 but 3 to .004. This is not what I want. But I still loaded 5 rds.and off to the range. ( 10 min away) The cases went in the chamber easy enough and they did come out fairly easy as well. One case I had to work the bolt up and down twice and then it came out. Yes, I did have a rubber pound hammer with me. I thought I was getting close to solveing the problem. When I got home, I tried putting the fired cases back in the gun. They chambered but I did not like the way they felt. And I was also unhappy about the .004 of bump that I now had. Now Im headed towards gas gun country with that much bump. So , the call went out to Sinclair for a small base FL S type die.
 
The tech also thought that I might try annelling the cases as another measure to fixing my problem. Have never annelled before, but it be something to think about. Sure wish that SB die works out for me. That was 70.00 I could have used for components or a bottle of wine. Thanks all for the ideas. I will post again when I get the die, maybe this week yet, and let you know how it turned out. Have a good one.
 
Amamnn,
There are some advantages to adhering to headspace standards, and you should know that Savage uses a "swing gauge" that is .002 shorter than a standard "go gauge" to set their rifles' headspace. This is done to allow for any settling in during proof and test firings. Also, the nut only lets you change headspace. When one is referring to a minimum chamber, headspace is not what is being referred to. The diameters a various points are differences between that and a maximum chamber. Changing the headspace does not affect these.

As far as bump dies go, I think that they are a waste of time if you are shooting hot loads. Cases get tight just above the head, as well as in length to the shoulder. Because many shooters only have experience with FL dies that are undersized in the neck, and cause brass to become crooked as the expander is pulled through necks, they "know" that FL dies are evil and to be avoided. If you ever are at a Benchrest match, you will see that virtually all the competitors FL resize every time. The difference is that their dies are a perfect match to their chambers and only move fired cases by the least amount that will allow them to chamber freely, and hold their bullets with the desired neck tension. The problem with ordinary FL dies can be solved by investing in a custom die that fits your chamber and specifying a die neck diameter that is correct, or using a bushing FL die that is a good fit to the chamber, in the body, instead of being undersized. One can even use an expander ball, which may be the way to go if you are not turning case necks. The trick is to use a neck bushing (in a S type FL die, for instance), or a one piece die with a neck ID that sizes necks so that only a thousandth or two of expansion will be done when the expander is drawn through the sized neck. This amount of expansion will not create enough pull on the neck to cause it to be cocked.
 
macv said:
The tech also thought that I might try annelling the cases as another measure to fixing my problem. Have never annelled before, but it be something to think about. Sure wish that SB die works out for me. That was 70.00 I could have used for components or a bottle of wine. Thanks all for the ideas. I will post again when I get the die, maybe this week yet, and let you know how it turned out. Have a good one.
Click to expand...

WHOAHHHH!!!

Do NOT try it, please!!

"Tech" or not, the guy has no idea. There is no combination of factors which could make this an annealing situation in my opinion. Your problem is AT THE BASE and if some tech gets you to anneal the base you'll blow yer face off............ You WILL experience a Catastrophic Failure.

Annealing is to take place in the neck/shoulder area of the case and ONLY the neck/shoulder. And there is not, cannot be anything hanging up in the neck/shoulder area under any circumstance.

If anyone would care to enlighten me as to how annealing could cure ANY sort of hangup issue I'll gladly learn.

al
 
Goodgrouper
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, and I wonder how he knew that.
 
On the annealing goodgrouper and alinwa are CORRECT.
That is a neck shoulder issue.
I am not convinced though that it is a die issue BECAUSE you say that they chamber just fine after reloading.
It seems one case is fine and another is not.
Use a sharpie or something and mark the heads of one or 4 that were tight like described and take 4 that were just fine.
Resize reload and go back to the range and see if all act as previous or if some that were tight are now fine and if any that were fine are now tight.
Take 2 of the ones that were tight clean them with steel wool and then brass polish make them pretty and slick.
Then shoot away. See what the results are
make sure your die is tight in the press and not sloppy or loose. I have seen mine loosen up after 50 -100 rnds if I dont get it tight enough to start with.
Look at the case that was tight and check for rings on the outside before and after firing and check for the same thing in the chamber.
Be sure and clean the chamber after cleaning the barrel.
 
Quote: The cases were FL sized with a Redd. type S bushing die. Bumped back about .002 after getting a measurement from a fired case.

Fellas. The problem is the chamber and the die. They don't match.
And it's a SAVAGE. The chamber is on the generous side.
The Small base die will work. For a short period of time. Then Case / Head separation.
 
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