Why don't you like my Mod 70 Classic

I will swap even money ANY original pre-64 M70 you have for these prized 700's so you guys can have accurate target rifles:D:D:D

The OP was about the M70 Classic....... I've got several. I'll trade these nice shiney nearly NEW rifles STRAIGHT ACROSS for ANY pre-64's YOU may have....... :D ..... I won't even cut them up to make them accurate!

LOL

al
 
The OP was about the M70 Classic....... I've got several. I'll trade these nice shiney nearly NEW rifles STRAIGHT ACROSS for ANY pre-64's YOU may have....... :D ..... I won't even cut them up to make them accurate!

LOL

al

We may have a deal if they came out of the custom shop and have the Kreiger tubes:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
Here's reason enough NOT to use the Model 70 Classic OR the pre-64 for a target rifle. (Aside from the fact that THEY WON'T SHOOT!)

In a word, casehead support.

Gee, I must be imagining that my Model 70 Classic actioned, Obermeyer barrelled 6.5x55 is launching 139gr Scenars at 2950fps and going toe-to-toe at 1,000 yards with Remingtons and Savages without blowing up.:rolleyes:

Don
 
Gee, I must be imagining that my Model 70 Classic actioned, Obermeyer barrelled 6.5x55 is launching 139gr Scenars at 2950fps and going toe-to-toe at 1,000 yards with Remingtons and Savages without blowing up.:rolleyes:

Don

Tell us more Don..... how is it modified and what sort of groups is it capable of? What does it shoot at 100yds?

al
 
I hate to get involved in a spitting contest but there are many statements being made on this subject that some clarification is due.

I belong to the camp that thinks a model 70 can, and will shoot as well as a Remington. However, it will cost more money to make one shoot as well because the set-up time for the machine work takes longer and requires more specialized fixtures. Rem 700, and clones, are easier for machinists to work on, and since time is money and the easier the set-up the quicker it can be done and the more money can be made. As someone mentioned earlier - the Rem 700 is the small block Chevy of the rifle world - there are tons of fixtures and accessories for them and anyone with a modicum of smithing ability can make them shoot reasonably well.

Rather than put forth arguments that are based on opinion I have excerpted a few items from Stuart Otteson's book, Bolt Action Rifles - A Design Analysis, Volume One

This is generally accepted as the definitive work on bolt action designs.

I doubt that reading this will sway anyone from one camp to the other and my intention is only to present fact rather than opinion or speculation. Unfortunaltely I could not paste the illustrations from the book.

I will leave you to draw your own conclusions from his analysis.

Stuart Otteson’s - The Bolt Action

(This paragraph was made while discussing how the Mod 70 evolved from the Mod 54)

Model 70
The principal change made to this long and extremely sturdy receiver was moving the front guard screw rearward from the recoil lug to the front bedding flat for the Model 70. The new centered location not only evenly
distributes tension, but the clamping action now helps reinforce the recoil area of the stock. This, combined with a much larger, better positioned recoil lug than used in the classic military actions, and an exceptionally stiff
receiver midsection, permits very stable bedding, a key to the Model 70's long history of success in competitive shooting.


One occasionally reads how siderail receivers lack the rigidity of cylindrical types, this conclusion usually supported by comparing the Remington Model 700 and Mauser M98. Yet, the Model 70 proves that the siderail type
can also be made very stiff. As the accompanying drawings show, its deep girder-like midsection makes it one of the most rigid bolt-action receivers ever designed.

effective turnbolt shrouding system

Almost any engineering solution involves compromise, however, and Remington’s solid cartridge-head encirclement is no exception. The tiny internally-mounted C-spring extractor involved lacks an integral purchase.
The retaining lip thus made necessary within the bolt head increases boltface counterbore depth beyond an optimum figure, and cartridge-head protrusion from the chamber is on the high side, far more than in a Mauser,
and even exceeding that in the Springfield rifle. Starting with a bolt counterbore of about .150 in., and adding clearances, tolerances, and the chamber-mouth radius, protrusion approaches minimum cartridge web
thickness. Thus careful barrel fitting is particularly important in this rifle. It might be interesting to closely examine the Remington bolt-nose fit. Clearance is approximately .010 in. (.010 in. diametral clearance and .010 in. end gap) which restricts, but normally, of course, could not seal gas escape. Under extreme pressure, however, this breech can actually obturate. This is detailed in Remington’s breech patent (U.S. Patent 2,585,195 issued Feb. 12, 1952 (M. H. Walker]) describing tests where pressure expanded the bolt-nose rim into the barrel to seal off everything but the firing pin hole.
This expansion, while damaging the bolt nose, nevertheless protected the rest of the action under conditions completely wrecking all other actions
tested. To verify that the shroud accounted for this strength, Remington also tested and destroyed several Model 721 prototypes modified to eliminate the barrel counterbore. It’s perhaps logical then to consider fitting the breech even tighter to increase effectiveness. Analysis will show that the normal Remington tolerances are already close to minimum from a production standpoint. But would it be useful to lap-in the counterbore of a custom barrel for more positive bolt-nose support? Probably not. The factory rifle is already susceptible to dirt. Nothing puts a Model 700 out of action faster than a
loose grain of powder or a primer fragment entrapped in the counterbore. A much closer fit would certainly impair reliability. Some custom benchrest rifles built on the Remington action are fitted closer than factory practice,
and sometimes even a loose bristle from a bore brush will jam these.
 
So Drover,

The conclusion seems to be that the casehead is BETTER supported on the Model 70? Especially the newer classic? That the M70 will safely take higher pressure than the Rem 700?

We haven't yet gotten into lower lug support and flexure but I'll look more into the support issue.

al
 
Alinwa,
Not boring in the least! I see myself going through much of what you talked about. After getting a shop put together (side hobby/buisiness) I've been busy building guns for myself and friends...always looking for that perfect throat, great chamber, tight tolerances....ya da ya da. In a week I'll have 5 FN made M70 actions on my bench and just dreams of what to build them into. One will certainly become a tactical 308, one possibly a 6.5 or 6mmX47 for F-Class, and my father-in-law would like a lighter weight hunting rifle so I'm thinking about a 284Win for him.

I am of the same mind at this point you once were and think a LOT of the precision comes from the barrel. Here in WI I'm pretty much devoted to the cut-rifled tubes of Krieger, Brux, Rock, and Bartlien...not to mention Obermeyer but I haven't had the pleasure of shooting his barrels yet. Of course I'm still at the point where I am perfectly happy with a gun that will shoot sub 1/2 MOA of which I have several. I haven't put everything together for a rifle with the goal of just shooting 'dots' although I am building a hunter benchrest rifle for this summer on a Stiller Rattler.

So back to the point, inherently I believe the Win 70 SHOULD shoot as well as a 700, but that is based on some of the above calibers mentioned... After a few of these current production M70's come together I may think differently, and I've never thought to put them up against a true benchrest custom as I think it's an unfair fight. But for what they are intended for, I think I'll be happy with them.

Down the road I'll have to put a 6PPC together to see what all the hoopla is about.
 
I only presented the facts taken from Otteson's book, as mentioned it is generally accepted as the definitive work on bolt action design analysis.

The book is not readily available and when it can be found it is quite expensive. However, it is available on a CD from Wolfe Publishing Co. for around $25.00 if I recall correctly. For anyone interested in the design of rifle actions it is a great read, he also has a good section on trigger designs, lock-times, etc.

I seem to remember that he also did a book on benchrest action design but since that was around 20 years ago it would be somewhat dated now.
 
Tell us more Don..... how is it modified and what sort of groups is it capable of? What does it shoot at 100yds?

al

al,

Started life as a M70 Classic Featherweight in 6.5x55. Here are the spec's:

Winchester M70 CRF action
28" fluted Obermeyer AMU contour barrel
McMillan Prone stock
Williams one-piece steel bottom metal
Speed Lock FP and spring
Jewell trigger
Badger 20MOA rail
TPS tactical rings
Sightron SII 6-24x42 scope

Terry Cross built it for me (pic in link below), and he used a special 6.5x55 match reamer for chambering. He also piller bedded the stock. I had him blast the barrel and receiver to rough it up, and I applied a baked-on Teflon/Moly finish when it arrived. I have used it for several years now in 1,000 yard F Class competition, and I can't even remember the last time I shot it at 100 yards.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/6.5Swede2A.jpg
 
ussr don- I'm considering a Swede for LR BR
Standard Swede shoulder or Improved?
Neck turn? Assuming you use Lapua brass, how's consistancy?
Operational magazine?
To use the same rifle for several years, she must still shoot pretty good scores.
How many rounds, and how's the throat holding up?
TIA
 
al,

Started life as a M70 Classic Featherweight in 6.5x55. Here are the spec's:

Winchester M70 CRF action
28" fluted Obermeyer AMU contour barrel
McMillan Prone stock
Williams one-piece steel bottom metal
Speed Lock FP and spring
Jewell trigger
Badger 20MOA rail
TPS tactical rings
Sightron SII 6-24x42 scope

Terry Cross built it for me (pic in link below), and he used a special 6.5x55 match reamer for chambering. He also piller bedded the stock. I had him blast the barrel and receiver to rough it up, and I applied a baked-on Teflon/Moly finish when it arrived. I have used it for several years now in 1,000 yard F Class competition, and I can't even remember the last time I shot it at 100 yards.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/6.5Swede2A.jpg


Nice looking rig ;)

al
 
Does anyone remember that Roy Dunlap used to make some of the best long range target rifles in the USA based on Pre-64 Model 70 actions? Winchester never sold actions so I've heard that he used to buy complete Standard rifles by the case (5 rifles), took them apart and sold the stocks. He prefered 220 Swifts because shooters in his area would bring in Swifts to re-barrel and he would use the take-off barrels from the new rifles he bought to get actions.

Old Roy knew what he was doing and could make target rifles shoot using Model 70 actions. Of course, that was years ago.

The Pre-64 Target rifles and Bull Guns that Winchester made were generally very accuate too, just as they came from the factory. The three that I own are all tack drivers. The trggers were stamped with a "T" and were given more care in production and assembly than those on Standard rifles. The barrels were also higher quality than on Standards.

And yes, I know that none of these rifles are up to modern benchrest standards. But this thread did not start out asking if M70s are suitable for benchrest rifles.
 
The Pre-64 Target rifles and Bull Guns that Winchester made were generally very accuate too, just as they came from the factory. The three that I own are all tack drivers. The trggers were stamped with a "T" and were given more care in production and assembly than those on Standard rifles. The barrels were also higher quality than on Standards.



Kind of like the supposed "extra care" Remington puts into their XBBR line of target rifles.......well that's what the ads claimed.....they wouldn't lie:rolleyes:
 
Not Winchester!!!!

Kind of like the supposed "extra care" Remington puts into their XBBR line of target rifles.......well that's what the ads claimed.....they wouldn't lie:rolleyes:

Remington might lie but Winchester never did!
 
ussr don- I'm considering a Swede for LR BR
Standard Swede shoulder or Improved?
Neck turn? Assuming you use Lapua brass, how's consistancy?
Operational magazine?
To use the same rifle for several years, she must still shoot pretty good scores.
How many rounds, and how's the throat holding up?
TIA

LHSmith,

Not an Improved chamber. What with being able to run at the same velocity (2950fps) as most 6.5-.284 shooters do, I haven't felt the need. Here is a link to the reamer dimensions that Terry Cross used to cut my chamber:

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/6.5x55_SE_KMW.jpg

Yes, Lapua brass. Tried Norma, but they are not as consistent and don't hold up to pressure the way Lapua does. Did not neck turn them. Since the Swede is a long action cartridge, no problem seating the bullets long and having them fit the magazine. Not sure how many rounds down the tube (5 - 600?). I checked the thoat last year with a bore scope, and it looked good. Of course, the throat is lengthening, and I am chasing it. IMHO, the Swede is a good cartridge to build on for LR shooting.

Don
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top