Which do you prefer and why...

[danl]

My opinion
GROUP for sure
I do not believe in score, because of the inequity on bullets.
The guy with the .30 will always win, he has a huge advantage
Correct, much cheaper and easier to run and shoot a score match.
I shoot ARA for score and do enjoy that way better than center-fire score

DAN

 

[Mike Bryant]

So it's probably not surprising that I like shooting Score matches. Never could rationalize the buzz from shooting a small group if you missed the bull's-eye by a foot. Started shooting local VFS matches because, despite living in Dallas/Ft Worth, I'm 4+ hours from any F-Class matches. I would consider gearing up to shoot Group benchrest matches but there just aren't any offered in north Texas.

Denton has registered group matches.

 

[rkittine]

Not much experience here, but I like Score better than group because my groups are not yet that great. An X to the left and an X to the right, or top vs bottom are still 10s and an Xs, but superimposed on each other could be a pretty poor group.

Bob

 

[Kyle Schultz]

Denton has registered group matches.

I would love to be proven wrong but NTSA (Denton) does not hold monthly benchrest matches of any sort. They do host a monthly poker chip match and they offer semi-monthly rimfire carbine/pistol matches. Neither are what you would remotely call a traditional group or score match.

In 2017, they did host did host something called the Texas Showdown in June and in April they hosted a Gulf Coast Region SP/LV match. Since I'm new to this sport I don't fully comprehend the lingo so I don't know whether these are group or score matches. Nor do I know if these are even recurring events.

My local club, the Arlington Sportsman's Club, hosts monthly 100Y VFS matches April through October. I'm grateful to Wes Johnson for running those matches. Beyond that, I'm on the road south to Huntsville or Tomball.

It's the classic chicken or egg. You can't grow the sport if you don't hold the matches and nobody wants to go through the trouble to host a match because nobody shows up.

 

[Lee Martin]

When I got back into benchrest, all I wanted to do is shoot groups. Had no interest in score whatsoever. But after competing in IBS VFS, I'm hooked. So I guess I couldn't really pick one. I like them both.

One thing I will say about score, which has already been mentioned.....moving the gun all over the target amplifies the importance of bag set-up. Earlier this year, I shot a 200 yard score match where the gun just didn't seem on. I figured it must've been the load, until the last record. I finished early and had rounds left in the block. Dropping down to the sighter, I stuck 5 into 0.385". After that, I starting messing with the front bag tension. Seems the gun wanted less grab.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

 

[glp]

When I got back into benchrest, all I wanted to do is shoot groups. Had no interest in score whatsoever. But after competing in IBS VFS, I'm hooked. So I guess I couldn't really pick one. I like them both.

One thing I will say about score, which has already been mentioned.....moving the gun all over the target amplifies the importance of bag set-up. Earlier this year, I shot a 200 yard score match where the gun just didn't seem on. I figured it must've been the load, until the last record. I finished early and had rounds left in the block. Dropping down to the sighter, I stuck 5 into 0.385". After that, I starting messing with the front bag tension. Seems the gun wanted less grab.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

Lee, I would agree. I have been fooling around with a Hart 1-14 30x46 barrel I've had for years recently. I have narrowed down the powder to either H4198 on the faster side and N135 on the slower side. Shooting either the gun does not like much front ear tension. Doing so makes the rifle jump violently in the bag. I get vertical stringing doing it. Relaxing the tension makes that issue go away. This may not be the case with a slower twist barre. --Greg

 

[rwnoel]

Given equal opportunity and resources, do you prefer short range group or score and why?

score.

why? Because that would seem to be point of having an X ring, 10 ring, etc.

Maybe it's just my makeup, but group size just tells me my gun, etc shoots consistently. The final step is to shoot consistently in the 10 ring.

 

[Wilbur]

The Gulf Coast Region SP/LV is a group match....don't know about the Texas Showdown but somebody does. Thing is, the requirements of a registered group match make it very difficult to host a monthly match.

 

[Mike Bryant]

I would love to be proven wrong but NTSA (Denton) does not hold monthly benchrest matches of any sort. ...

In 2017, they did host did host something called the Texas Showdown in June and in April they hosted a Gulf Coast Region SP/LV match. Since I'm new to this sport I don't fully comprehend the lingo so I don't know whether these are group or score matches. Nor do I know if these are even recurring events.

...

Those two matches are their only registered NBRSA group matches. There is almost a registered match every other weekend in the Gulf Coast region, but you have to travel a ways to most of the matches depending upon where you live and where the match is. New Braunfels has one registered match around the first of May, the Bluebonnet. Tomball has a registered match the first of the year, February or March, the Crawfish. Seymour had one match this year in May, I think. Not sure how many matches were at Huntsville. I haven't been there, but it sounds like its a first class facility. Midland had two matches. When I say matches, I'm talking about a weekend shooting two different classes of rifles, usually LV and HV classes. Seymour will always be UL/HV unless they shoot UL both days. Lubbock had a match in September. Lubbock has club matches once a month, but am not sure what month they start and how long they go towards fall. The biggest problem with group shooting is that we are all get older, the matches are put on by volunteers who have been hosting these matches for a long time and once they get to where they can't put on the matches someone either has to step up and host them or we lose the range. Walt Berger made the statement at the Nationals this year that short range benchrest is the most difficult of all of the shooting sports. It takes a certain kind of mentality to shoot it and stay with it. You see shooters get in it and stay for two or three years and then quit and you see shooters that have been doing it for years and years. Why it appeals to some and not to others, is the million dollar question. Cost is a big part of it, but as long as you don't have to have the latest and greatest in equipment, you can still be competitive. Bullets and barrels along with a scope that will hold point of impact are the key.

Scott Hunter is the current director for the NBRSA gulf coast region. He'll get a match schedule out sometime before the first of the year. It looks like I'll be taking his place after the first of the year at least until an election can be had for director. Send me your e-mail address and I'll make sure and get you a copy of the match schedule for 2018. bryantcustom at gmail.com Substitute the @ symbol for at.

 

[Mike Bryant]

The Gulf Coast Region SP/LV is a group match....don't know about the Texas Showdown but somebody does. Thing is, the requirements of a registered group match make it very difficult to host a monthly match.

The main requirement is a moving backer for it to be registered with the NBRSA. IBS evidently requires that there also be a stationary backer as well. The moving backer require electricity at the target frames to run the backer. I've seen backers run off of generators. The target crew has to not only change the target, they have to change the moving backer paper as well. Twice as much work changing targets as with changing targets for score shooting as no moving backer required for score shooting. No electricity needed to shoot score as well.

 

[glp]

true enough, but

Not much experience here, but I like Score better than group because my groups are not yet that great. An X to the left and an X to the right, or top vs bottom are still 10s and an Xs, but superimposed on each other could be a pretty poor group.

Bob

a just missed 10 for a 9 at 100 yards and even at 200 and you are out of the game for the yardage. No shooting multiple small groups or screamers to average yourself back into the game.

 

[glp]

Mike

The main requirement is a moving backer for it to be registered with the NBRSA. IBS evidently requires that there also be a stationary backer as well. The moving backer require electricity at the target frames to run the backer. I've seen backers run off of generators. The target crew has to not only change the target, they have to change the moving backer paper as well. Twice as much work changing targets as with changing targets for score shooting as no moving backer required for score shooting. No electricity needed to shoot score as well.

IBS requires stationary backers for multi yardage shoots IF records are to be claimed. You can run a multi yard shoot without them but if someone shoots a record they are out of luck. I guess the theory is that multi yards probably attract more shooters and backers are at least a way to prove that a crossfire on a target didn't come from the shooter on that bench.

 

[Lee Martin]

a just missed 10 for a 9 at 100 yards and even at 200 and you are out of the game for the yardage. No shooting multiple small groups or screamers to average yourself back into the game.

So true....and I've been there on more than one occasion in 100 yard VFS. Shoot a 0.400" in group, follow it with a 0.150", and you're back in the running. But both disciplines are hard and each have their own nuances. I really couldn't pick a favorites between the two. I just wish there were more group shoots in the mid-Atlantic region.

-Lee
www.singleactions.com

 

[Jim Pag]

a just missed 10 for a 9 at 100 yards and even at 200 and you are out of the game for the yardage. No shooting multiple small groups or screamers to average yourself back into the game.

True at 100 yards Greg, but not so at 200. How many times have you won a 200 yard match with a 249?

 

[jackie schmidt]

The way I generally approach VFS is I shoot for X's at 100, and 10's at 200. If I happen to collect some X's on the way at 200, that's fine. But the first order of business is to shoot "clean".

I lost a match at 200 yards two years ago with a 249 14x. That one shot missed the 10 ring by about .010 of an inch on the reticle. It might as well have been a mile.

I ended up with a 499 36x. I got beat by a 250 28x.

That's the nature of the game.

 

[mwezell]

True at 100 yards Greg, but not so at 200. How many times have you won a 200 yard match with a 249?

A quick glance at this years scores says it only happens that way about 10-15% of the time, Jim. When I was shooting IBS a lot, it was always the name of the game..stay clean and you'll be at or near the top at the end of the day. I shoot mostly UBR now and the x is scored as a point. It changes the strategy some and shakes up the would be standings a bit. Like group, it affords the ability to make up for one bad shot, if you can keep em on the dot more than the other guys and gals. You can't go into the last target of the day and play it safe. You've gotta bear down on that dot for every shot. You can bet that the guy a point or two down from you will be.

Sure, we're always hoping to hit the dot but there are times and conditions when you should probably hold outside of the comfort zone to get it, but that same hold is good for a "safe" ten. Won't work in UBR very often and is a good way to give up a win at the end.

 

[glp]

Jim,

True at 100 yards Greg, but not so at 200. How many times have you won a 200 yard match with a 249?

I just did a quick look at some of the 2017 200 yard shoot scores:

17-18 June PTRC 6 250s
17-18 june Bridgeville 1 250
8-9 July Ashe Cty 4 250s
8-9 July PA State 4 250s
May 5 Augusta 2 250s
Aug 12 Fairfax 4 250s
12 Aug Me State No 250's 3 249s
13 Aug Willmore KY No 250s 4 249s
19 Aug Buck Creek 5 250s
19 Aug Md State 12 250s
20 AUg Orrington 1 250
2-3 Sept IBS Nationals First 10 places at 200 vfs were 250s
9-10 Sept VT 2 250s
June 2 Estanolle GA 6 250s

I do believe that if you drop a point at most IBS 200 yard score shoots these days you are in trouble. As far as how many 200s Ive won with 249 prolly some but I really don't remember.

 

[Jim Pag]

I just did a quick look at some of the 2017 200 yard shoot scores:

17-18 June PTRC 6 250s
17-18 june Bridgeville 1 250
8-9 July Ashe Cty 4 250s
8-9 July PA State 4 250s
May 5 Augusta 2 250s
Aug 12 Fairfax 4 250s
12 Aug Me State No 250's 3 249s
13 Aug Willmore KY No 250s 4 249s
19 Aug Buck Creek 5 250s
19 Aug Md State 12 250s
20 AUg Orrington 1 250
2-3 Sept IBS Nationals First 10 places at 200 vfs were 250s
9-10 Sept VT 2 250s
June 2 Estanolle GA 6 250s

I do believe that if you drop a point at most IBS 200 yard score shoots these days you are in trouble. As far as how many 200s Ive won with 249 prolly some but I really don't remember.

Well thank God Greg that I didn't think I was out of the match at the states in Augusta after shooting a 49-3x at 200 on the 1st match. Remember what happened to Randy on his last shot? He handed the win to me that time. Remember what happed to Allie and me last Saturday at 200 yards on the last match? We were both clean and he dropped a point on his 2nd shot for record and me, I screwed up the worst by dropping one on my last shot. Handed 1st and 2nd place to Allie and Randy. So to me with mild conditions some shooters will shoot a 250 at 200, but in rough conditions a 249 isn't all that bad. You drop a point at 100, lets face it your out of the game.

 

[GerryM]

which do you prefer and why

I like them both but do only a small amount of group shooting

Jerry right budgets do make a difference cost are rising and travel can be a real issue for many.
some of the killers on attendance at match,s is due to many things.

Years ago we all shot for the smallest group , since the.007 or so record ,the incentive of sorts has gone for some shooters.
today it,s about Aggs, It,a really had game to play now and the bar gets risen every year.

score will get to be the same way after a while given only to guys who shoot clean all the way thru .

there is no margin for error,,