Tim Singleton
Member
I think their bullets have a lot to do with it
What Do the Few Do That the Rest of Us Do Not?
- Thread starter Hunter
- Start date
Talent
Don't believe everything you hear about how much a shooter practices. Even People born with a Benchrest Rifle in their mouth
,have to practice.
The CTF's you're referring to have honed their skills,through practice, to the point where they can afford to skip a few practice sessions and still maintain their skill level. Bo Jackson(Football/Basball) had a similar reputation.
Some non CTF'S with the most expensive equipment are there for show and no go. If you've been to a Shot gun competition, the show no go is abundantly apparent.
Just my observations.
Glenn
Don't believe everything you hear about how much a shooter practices. Even People born with a Benchrest Rifle in their mouth
,have to practice.The CTF's you're referring to have honed their skills,through practice, to the point where they can afford to skip a few practice sessions and still maintain their skill level. Bo Jackson(Football/Basball) had a similar reputation.
Some non CTF'S with the most expensive equipment are there for show and no go. If you've been to a Shot gun competition, the show no go is abundantly apparent.
Just my observations.
Glenn
JerrySharrett
Senile Member
Barrels and bullets?? If the combo you are using will not, in very mild conditions, put the first two bullets exactly through the same hole its time to relook what you are using. A group never gets any smaller after the second shot.
When I was inventorying Ferris Pindell's shop for June I found his latest notebook. Ferris had a bench just outside his back door. That last entry was "it put the first 6 exactly through the same hole". That is an acceptable start.
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When I was inventorying Ferris Pindell's shop for June I found his latest notebook. Ferris had a bench just outside his back door. That last entry was "it put the first 6 exactly through the same hole". That is an acceptable start.
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Hunter - You've simply got to have a winning rifle. Practice has a little bit to do with winning but the thing is, practicing with less than a winning rifle is practicing to lose. Sure, there's rifles that shoot true to the wind. If the wind blows left and your bullet went to the left that's a pretty good rifle. The rifle you're looking for is the one that when the wind blows left the bullet doesn't go left as far as it should have gone. It doesn't have much to do with skill. Yes, at a large match, with bench rotation every target, skill becomes more important but until you have this rifle I'm writing about you don't need to worry about skill....or anything else.
Matches are won and lost purely on errors in judgement within the competitors/rifles that could possibly win. The others involved in the match are just there for the sake of attendance and were beat before they packed the car.
The above statements have to do with 100/200 yard group shooting as I've little knowledge of other venues.
Matches are won and lost purely on errors in judgement within the competitors/rifles that could possibly win. The others involved in the match are just there for the sake of attendance and were beat before they packed the car.
The above statements have to do with 100/200 yard group shooting as I've little knowledge of other venues.
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Wilbur, thanks for "weighing in"; I always look forward to reading what you have to say.
Regarding "this rifle," are 30 barrels/75 rifles (see post # 3 above) the best way to get such a rifle? Regardless, as stated above, I suspect many of the non-CTF have just as good of equipment (including barrels) as do the CTF. If that's the case, it seems that the "rifles that could possibly win" would be a much larger number than the 10-20 that are typically at the top of lists.
Regarding "judgment," is that from practice (is so, what about all those non-CTF who practice a lot?) or from some God-given talent? I'm beginning to think I was in the wrong line when God handed out BR talent.
Regarding "this rifle," are 30 barrels/75 rifles (see post # 3 above) the best way to get such a rifle? Regardless, as stated above, I suspect many of the non-CTF have just as good of equipment (including barrels) as do the CTF. If that's the case, it seems that the "rifles that could possibly win" would be a much larger number than the 10-20 that are typically at the top of lists.
Regarding "judgment," is that from practice (is so, what about all those non-CTF who practice a lot?) or from some God-given talent? I'm beginning to think I was in the wrong line when God handed out BR talent.
What do the few....
I agree most of the equipment is equal. Some can "tune" equipment better than others. However,I sincerely believe some have more skill/talent than others. Just like in school.....some made straight A's with very little effort...some made A's by studying a lot....some couldn't make an A no matter how much they studied. The winners have the ability to identify,adapt,and overcome conditions better with a better mental game...they have better understanding of what is taking place and how to make the best of it.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks.
I agree most of the equipment is equal. Some can "tune" equipment better than others. However,I sincerely believe some have more skill/talent than others. Just like in school.....some made straight A's with very little effort...some made A's by studying a lot....some couldn't make an A no matter how much they studied. The winners have the ability to identify,adapt,and overcome conditions better with a better mental game...they have better understanding of what is taking place and how to make the best of it.
Just my 2 cents. Thanks.
jackie schmidt
New member
Just to ad to your comments.
One thing you have to be willing to admit is when something just isn't going to cut it.
That new barrel that you just spent $350 on, plus getting it chambered, then the test time, only to find out it just isn't going to be a winner. At what point does it come off.
The same can be said for all of the components. Have you ever bought 10,000 bullets that, for what ever reason, were mediocre? Have you ever assembled a brand new Rifle, only to be disappointed in its performance. All actions are not created equal. And it seems like the ones that start out bad never get much better, regardless of all the "corrections" you try.
My 30BR VFS Rifle is based on a Old Farley R/L that I bought in 1997. People ask why I don't go to a newer action. The answer is simple. This action shoots. I seems to like any barrel I screw onto it. As good as this Rifle shoots on a consistent basis, I just can't see going to something else.
It's not new. And by many standards of the day, it certainly isn't fancy. But it's capable of winning.
Barrels do not make a winning rifle. You have to have a good rifle before you spend money on 30 barrels. What I'm sayin' here is that the rifle is the bigger battle. Good rifles can find good barrels while a lesser rifle can't. There's no telling how many good barrels spend their entire lifetime shooting .292s because of the rifle. A very typical characteristic of a lousy rifle is that they often shoot a really good group....or place third in an agg. This characteristic causes the competitor to believe it's him, rather than anything else, that lost. Another typical situation is the rifle that needs constant tuning to shoot well...not good but a little better.
What makes a good rifle? Darned if I know! I just know that you have to get your hands on one somehow to be one of those guys Hunter speaks of.
What makes a good rifle? Darned if I know! I just know that you have to get your hands on one somehow to be one of those guys Hunter speaks of.
jackie schmidt
New member
Wilbur, several years back, one of the best shooters in Benchrest told me this story. He had decided to go with one of the new design stocks where the stock builder required the action on hand. The shooter sent him an old Panda that looked like it had 100,000 rounds through it. The stock maker called the shooter and asked him why he wasn't furnishing a new action to go in the new, and very expensive stock.
The reply.....that action was a proven winner.
He emphasized that he had owned numerous actions, and if people think they are all created equal, they are just fooling themselves.
Yeh, I know. It's a crapshoot. Just like life.
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
It wouldn't surprise me if not "many non-CTF actually buy 20 barrels at a time and spend the time finding the winners [or] put in the time that Tony Boyer does"; however, that's not my point. My point is, I suspect a LOT those non-CTF put in as much time and money as do some of the CTF, yet those CTF are still CTF.
As stated in post # 20 above, "I asked one of the CTF if he practiced a lot and he said "No"; another shooter who is not a CTF told me he shoots a couple of hours most days of the week." Also, I asked another CTF the same question; he said he averaged about 10K rounds a year, but shot only 5K in a recent year. It wouldn't surprise me if a good number of non-CTF shoot 10K rounds a year, and for sure, 5K rounds a year.
Hunter, is it possible that the answer to your question, has been touched on in one or some of the many responses in this discussion?
Pick a Sport,Professional or amateur, And the same group of winners names consistently appear at the top of the list in these Sports, With an occasional few surprises.
As I see it, the only way to know why this occurs is to get into the minds and habits of the Competitors. You asked an interesting question, I wish I knew the answer.
Glenn
Pick a Sport,Professional or amateur, And the same group of winners names consistently appear at the top of the list in these Sports, With an occasional few surprises.
As I see it, the only way to know why this occurs is to get into the minds and habits of the Competitors. You asked an interesting question, I wish I knew the answer.
Glenn
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Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Probably so, but in so many different ways that it's not clear.
Out of curiosity, I wonder if we could do a survey and get an idea of how many rounds a year we shoot? I'll start, the last three years I've averaged about 1,900 rounds of SR BR-type shooting (and my results are not pretty).
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scott mims
Guest
I will say this if I go to 3 matches a year I will average around 900-1050 rounds a year. (Matches are the only place I get to shoot. No where to practice). I will use 25 pieces of brass that I try to get to last me 3 matches. (Might start trying to use a buddies annealing machine and try to get more out of the brass.) So with that being said a box of brass will last me 3 to 4 years. The reason I bring that up I heard one of the better shooters say he goes through a 1000 or more pieces of brass a year. Let me compare again ...... me 25 a year him 1000 a year.
Also I heard some of the popular crowd (the good shooters) ? Say they get 10 to as many as 40 barrels a year. I have been shooting since 1999 and I think I have had a total of 10-12 barrels in 18 years......TOTAL. Let me compare again for the second time... avg a year... barrels... me a year 0.70 ....them (lowest amount) 10 a year.
I remember joking with Bart before a match and told him to tell me what to do and let me shoot his rifle and I would let him shoot mine. I said I bet I would beat him with his rifle while he shot mine. Of course he didn't say anything but he didn't disagree with me either. So I will never be the competitor that Bart is but even one of the best shooters in the world can't win or make a rifle a winner if it's not. I guess what I'm trying to say you can have all the skill in the world but if the rifle won't shoot it just won't shoot. Man if that was the case if it was about just skill and talent Boyer would just bring a over the counter 223 and kick our butts. ? Equipment equipment equipment
Like all my other post if/when someone gets mad I guess I will delete this one too. ?
I will say this though if everyone had the exact same rifle then we can start saying its all about skill and the shooter. I know one thing it would be a lot cheaper sport if it was. ? If it was just skill turnout would probably even be worse at matches
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Tim Singleton
Member
I think it's all of the things in this entire thread coming together. With just plain old experience being the common denominator
The CTF guys didn't just appear overnight most have 20 plus years of hard fought competition experience under their belt.
Well deserved success
The CTF guys didn't just appear overnight most have 20 plus years of hard fought competition experience under their belt.
Well deserved success
mwezell
Mike Ezell
I'll probably never be a HOF shooter but when I was at my best, I shot just about every day and about 15 matches/year.
Using the same equipment as I was winning with, I watched my scores progressively fall over about a 5 year span that was directly relative to trigger time. It worked for a while, as I could still show up and win or be competitive, but my scores fell off over time.
Yes, I had different barrels over that time and some were better marginally than others, but the scores still progressed downward, with a little spike with a better barrel.
I've made a conscience effort to shoot more and my scores are reflecting that, now. It is with a different rifle, which made me want and need to spend more time shooting, so it was a natural thing. Now, to keep my head into the game, as well as try an interesting cartridge out, I've taken on a 6 Grendel project. It shows lots of promise but I'm not where I need to be with my shooting time yet and neither are my scores..but, I am winning matches again. The matches I've won so far have been with my 30 Major, with which I am intimately familiar. I've been in the running with the 6 in the only match I've shot with it but didn't finish as well as it was capable of doing.
I feel like it'll happen with trigger time and learning the ins and outs of the cartridge. That will only come with one thing...Trigger time. When I was at my personal best, I was shooting around 7,000 rounds per year. I am not nearly at that point right now. Take that for what it's worth, but as time allows, I'll be shooting more and hopefully, finishing better.
Better equipment will carry you a long way but it won't win in a game that's won and lost by who screws up least..which is a good description of our sport. Golf is the same way. I think it was Jack Nicholson that said so. I think he said "golf is a game of bad shots, not good ones..or something to that effect. Is that not true of our sport? We are all tied for the lead when the match starts and every shot makes somebody happy.
Using the same equipment as I was winning with, I watched my scores progressively fall over about a 5 year span that was directly relative to trigger time. It worked for a while, as I could still show up and win or be competitive, but my scores fell off over time.
Yes, I had different barrels over that time and some were better marginally than others, but the scores still progressed downward, with a little spike with a better barrel.
I've made a conscience effort to shoot more and my scores are reflecting that, now. It is with a different rifle, which made me want and need to spend more time shooting, so it was a natural thing. Now, to keep my head into the game, as well as try an interesting cartridge out, I've taken on a 6 Grendel project. It shows lots of promise but I'm not where I need to be with my shooting time yet and neither are my scores..but, I am winning matches again. The matches I've won so far have been with my 30 Major, with which I am intimately familiar. I've been in the running with the 6 in the only match I've shot with it but didn't finish as well as it was capable of doing.
I feel like it'll happen with trigger time and learning the ins and outs of the cartridge. That will only come with one thing...Trigger time. When I was at my personal best, I was shooting around 7,000 rounds per year. I am not nearly at that point right now. Take that for what it's worth, but as time allows, I'll be shooting more and hopefully, finishing better.
Better equipment will carry you a long way but it won't win in a game that's won and lost by who screws up least..which is a good description of our sport. Golf is the same way. I think it was Jack Nicholson that said so. I think he said "golf is a game of bad shots, not good ones..or something to that effect. Is that not true of our sport? We are all tied for the lead when the match starts and every shot makes somebody happy.
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Wilbur has always been rifle, rifle rifle and he is correct. That's is the foundation. As Wayne Campbell says, "You can't make Chicken Salad out of Chicken Sh$$!" After that, all other components which make up your system have to be killer! Any weak link and it doesn't work.
On the other hand you can have all of the above and it still won't make you a top shooter. On several occasions I have handed over KILLER equipment (like just won HOF points equipment) with bullets, loads, seating depths, everything on a silver platter! It DID NOT turn those shooters into top competitors! Out of three occasions that I can think of. Two of the shooters looked at me like, "I thought you said this would shoot!!!!" Regardless of how good the equipment is you still have to know how to handle the gun and when to pull the trigger and when to stop. That's the part of it you have to learn on your own.
When Scott Mims suggested if we switched equipment he would beat me. I didn't take him up on it. Because I knew I had worked my ass off to have a top shooting rifle. I knew what my gun was capable of. I had no idea what his would do. As it turns out he won the yardage.
So once you have great equipment. You have to go to work. The top guys WORK at being a top shooter. Don't bull yourself and think oh he just buys a bunch of barrels! The top guys practice all the time! They stay on top of their equipment, they study every aspect and they obsess over the details. For me, the more I WORK. The luckier I get.
Bart
On the other hand you can have all of the above and it still won't make you a top shooter. On several occasions I have handed over KILLER equipment (like just won HOF points equipment) with bullets, loads, seating depths, everything on a silver platter! It DID NOT turn those shooters into top competitors! Out of three occasions that I can think of. Two of the shooters looked at me like, "I thought you said this would shoot!!!!" Regardless of how good the equipment is you still have to know how to handle the gun and when to pull the trigger and when to stop. That's the part of it you have to learn on your own.
When Scott Mims suggested if we switched equipment he would beat me. I didn't take him up on it. Because I knew I had worked my ass off to have a top shooting rifle. I knew what my gun was capable of. I had no idea what his would do. As it turns out he won the yardage.
So once you have great equipment. You have to go to work. The top guys WORK at being a top shooter. Don't bull yourself and think oh he just buys a bunch of barrels! The top guys practice all the time! They stay on top of their equipment, they study every aspect and they obsess over the details. For me, the more I WORK. The luckier I get.
Bart
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S
scott mims
Guest
I love it when you TOP dogs post. I'm serious. I know y'all can BS with the best of them to but I like it when y'all say something it means more to us normal shooters when y'all join in. I guess this is the only place we can be equal in our eyes ?. Like I have told you and Billy many times I would love to sit and talk with y'all at a match but as "busy" as y'all are with others I hate to wear out my welcome. Again thanks for all y'all have done for us over the years and Bart you have helped me out a lot (Kim also) .
True enough we shouldn't separate the HOF/top shooters from us as we are all in this together. But I wish there was a section on here that y'all could post on things (kinda like Boyers book) but all of y'all are writing your on chapters ?
Hope all of that made since and didn't sound to corny
I hope you noticed Bart I had this in my post "told him to tell me what to do". Yes with your rifle I would have had a big advantage BUT I still would have needed your knowledge to finish what I would have started. Reloading, powder charge, reading wind etc. ?
True enough we shouldn't separate the HOF/top shooters from us as we are all in this together. But I wish there was a section on here that y'all could post on things (kinda like Boyers book) but all of y'all are writing your on chapters ?
Hope all of that made since and didn't sound to corny
I hope you noticed Bart I had this in my post "told him to tell me what to do". Yes with your rifle I would have had a big advantage BUT I still would have needed your knowledge to finish what I would have started. Reloading, powder charge, reading wind etc. ?
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Of course it takes excellent equipment, but I don't believe you can buy your way to top performance, nor do I believe you need to. I've been playing since 2006, and the rifle I shoot has been with me since the beginning. I finally got a backup I trust a couple years ago. They share barrels, and I just chambered #15 -- that's the total over 10+ years for 2 guns. So no, it does not take 30 barrels a year or 75 guns to find 'winning' equipment. Where did I spend the money? Easy: 15-20 registered matches per year -- every year. And since I live in Wyoming where shooting from Nov through April isn't an option, I'm on the road 350-600 miles (or more) one-way almost every weekend from May to October. This is what I do just to try and join the ranks of the elite. Want to boil all this down to something simple: PASSION. That is what makes a shooter do whatever it takes to find the equipment, find the time, find the money to strive to compete. If you have the passion you will find your path to your goals. Your accomplishments and wins, beit a yardage, a grand, a 2-gun, a big match, or HOF points, are a direct reflection of dedication and commitment.
A little over a year ago, I started traveling with a brand new shooter (Jeff) who exemplifies what I mean. In than 2 years he has equipped himself with top quality rifles and components. He traveled to 15+ matches last year from Visallia CA to Fairchance PA. He just won his first 2-gun (against a field of 33 including multiple HOF/WorldTeam folks) and he was shooting his own bullets. His passion for competing in this sport will make him tough to beat anywhere in the coming years -- if he keeps his passion going.
The trouble I see is that a lot people don't fully believe in themselves enough to stay the course. They might buy a nice rifle, but sit around and lament 'if I had his barrels' or 'his bullets', I could win too. Years ago Ratigan told me it takes 5 years to make a benchrest shooter. Most people give up and settle for mediocre performance long before that.
Time. Effort. Energy. Passion. That will put you in the winner circle. The rest is just details.
A little over a year ago, I started traveling with a brand new shooter (Jeff) who exemplifies what I mean. In than 2 years he has equipped himself with top quality rifles and components. He traveled to 15+ matches last year from Visallia CA to Fairchance PA. He just won his first 2-gun (against a field of 33 including multiple HOF/WorldTeam folks) and he was shooting his own bullets. His passion for competing in this sport will make him tough to beat anywhere in the coming years -- if he keeps his passion going.
The trouble I see is that a lot people don't fully believe in themselves enough to stay the course. They might buy a nice rifle, but sit around and lament 'if I had his barrels' or 'his bullets', I could win too. Years ago Ratigan told me it takes 5 years to make a benchrest shooter. Most people give up and settle for mediocre performance long before that.
Time. Effort. Energy. Passion. That will put you in the winner circle. The rest is just details.