We need to fix this - TOGETHER!

Simple enough................!

"Remove your bolts and remove your equipment from the line." You don't follow the command you go home! We're all adults here and need to except responsibility for safety. How hard is it to put the bolt in your pocket?

D R
 
Whether you are officiating at a range or just shooting, I believe we are all "Range Officers" and should be aware of safety infringements whether perceived or for real.
What extra effort is required in rendering a firearm completely safe in the eyes of everbody at the range whether veteran or beginner.
 
my perception is a chamber flag is actually far more visable and much easier to see than bolt out. And you can put a flag in all rifles/pistols, even ones that the bolt can't be locked open, close the bolt carefully on the flag, won't hurt the rifle and you can still see it. The thing about dropping your bolt, what do you do with it when you're cleaning? I belong to two clubs, neither has bolt out or flags in their rules, just "make safe". At matches, it's at the descretion of the director; at one match there was an issue with a guy who had a Win. 52 and had a problem with bolt removal, it got worked out though, there's always a solution to make safe. Thanks, Douglas
 
A serious question

I have a serious question and I would like the input of those with more experience than me.

In order to be reasonably safe and stay within the rules, where and when do we clean our rifles between targets?

Let me say, I like to have the rifle on the rest.

Wilbur, I would regard your thoughts as the correct and final answer.

Concho Bill
 
Concho Bill:

I am like you, I like to clean my rifle while it is on the rest.. I have never seen a cleaning rod shot downrange..:D

Dave
 
george in KY said:
you dont clean with the bolt in do ya ?
as long as the bolt is out i don't see the a problem.
Click to expand...

George, This is where I am coming from.

This is from the 50/50 rules:

SAFETY
Rifles must be equipped with trigger guards. All rifles must have bolts removed or chamber flags in place at all times when not engaged in active competition and prior to removal from the firing line. Failure to comply will result in disqualification. Rifles are NEVER to be on the bench until the Range master calls the relay to the line after determining that the range is secure. When target crew is down range, NO RIFLES will be allowed on benches. Loss of sanctioning may result if this procedure is not followed.

One thought would be to allow time for rifle cleaning after a cease fire is called. Another would be to allow the rifles to be checked for bolts out or flags and just leave them in place.

Concho Bill
 
Bill
The next relay is going to be unhappy if you are cleaning your rifle and delaying the set up for their turn.
Don
 
Bill,

Most guys use their tailgates or a table provided by the range or brought for that purpose. Not only is it against the rules, it is inconsiderate. Even if you get done before time runs out you shouldn't disturb the shooter next to you by screwing around at the bench cleaning or making a bunch of trips back and forth putting equipment away.

Ken
 
I didn't read this entire thread word for word but if the IR50/50, RBA, and ARA don't have a verbal command by the Range Officer to "remove bolts, make the line safe" they darn well should.

Once the process is corrected then you can go on from there.
 
I have seen bolts dropped on bench,pad. stool,rest and when trying to fit it in the holster or take it out and when some are trying to insert the bolt. We may not want to admit it but we may possibly not be as nimble and dexterous as in our younger days our hand -eye movements are not as good as we would like.
Maybe Wilbur buy a few hundred of the green flags, sell to Match Directors who can sell to shooters at cost and require the flags or if you feel safe enough not to drop your Bolt or your mind is stong enough not to lose it then by all means remove the bolt. If you question your possible dexterity then use a flag and require the shooters to ALWAYS check the bench to their LEFT for bolt out or flag in
when a rifle comes to or leaves the bench.
After Cleaning a rifle,or putting a rifle away in case the flag can be put in chamber to show unloaded and a gun arriving at a match in case bolt closed is more dangerous to fellow shooters than an open bolt or flag during the match. There is no 100% safe when firearms and ammo for them are in the same location with people.
I remember the story of a pistol shooter testing his ammo for chamber fit the night before a match by dropping them into barrel out of gun and tipping the barrel to drop out the round. A round detonated and he was blinded in an eye.
I like the flag idea.
 
If one forgets to take the bolt out it is a case of forgetting. What makes one think he/she will remember to remove the bolt and install a required flag.

Fred K
 
i would sure be a lot easier to spot flags in a chamber to spot if a bolt is inserted or not
 
Green Green, it's green they say, from the far side of the range.

I like the green flag that German pointed out NRA Smallbore shooters will be using this year. The green will show up better than the orange weed wacker line our club has been using..

Gon'a order a hundred of those green flags and pass them to our shooters. We can do that without getting approval from a National Association: Cuz we are outlaws. If they lose one they will pay a buck for a second one. (Maybe we can sell them for a buck to our Cowboy shoooters)

In my opinion that green flag is a better safety measure than pulling the bolt. From a distance a range officer (and everyone else) can see that flag. From a distance (from the wrong side) we can't see if the bolt has been removed.

Joe Haller :)
 
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IMHO, either removal of the bolt or installation of a chamber plug (open bolt indicator) adequately demonstrates that the weapon is safe.
The chamber plug has some advantages. It is highly visible; it's applicable for rifles whose bolts are not easily removable (e.g. BSA Martinis); and if you use it at your club for all shooting disciplines, shooters only have to be trained in one safety procedure.
For several years, we have used chamber plugs for our Schuetzen, smallbore, and benchrest matches. We are completely satisfied with them.
We use ones from the CMP. They are plastic, bright yellow, and are "one size fits all" from .22 up through at least .30 caliber. The CMP calls them Open Bolt Indicators (P/N 244) and sells them for $3.99 per dozen. CHEAP INSURANCE!!!!. We sell them for $1.50. That makes a small profit for the club, makes them expensive enough that shooters don't want to lose them, and are still reasonably priced.
If you want them, buy early. The CMP is backordered several months.
While we're on the subject of safety, our club sells EAR disposable ear plugs at the matches. We don't require them, but we do make sure that they are available. If you shoot without hearing protection, it's not because it isn't available.
 
Don Stith said:
Bill
The next relay is going to be unhappy if you are cleaning your rifle and delaying the set up for their turn.
Don
Click to expand...

TangoTwo said:
Bill,
Most guys use their tailgates or a table provided by the range or brought for that purpose. Not only is it against the rules, it is inconsiderate. Even if you get done before time runs out you shouldn't disturb the shooter next to you by screwing around at the bench cleaning or making a bunch of trips back and forth putting equipment away.
Ken
Click to expand...

You both have good points. We are reasonable grown men and there are three separate problems here.
1. Removing bolts or using chamber flags. No problem.
2. Removing rifles from the benchrests when the target crew is down range and putting them in a gun rack. We can do this.
3. Where to clean the rifles. I have a question on this one.

I am talking about having a single relay of six to fifteen shooters shooting three targets.

I think that there are safe ways to handle this and clean our rifles on our rests on our benches between matches.

We will follow the rules.

Concho Bill
 
Good post Wilbur on a very important topic.
As many of you know a young man was killed when he was shooting a full-auto at one of the Western Mass clubs. He was not coached that the weapon would rise on recoil, his instructor did not have his hands on the weapon the first time the young man shot this weapon and, as a result, he suffered the ultimate consequence.

The reason I mention this is that the club hosting the "machine gun" shoot, the instructors, and the shooters attending are all aware of safety rules and the dire results if they are not always the first consideration when handling firearms. Yet it happened.

I saw an interesting photo in Mike Ratigan's book, page 160 Figure 4. It shows the shooters at their benches holding their bolts up waiting for the Match Director's command to "insert bolts".

I support bolts being removed from a gun at all times between the "insert bolts" and remove "bolts" commands. I don't support rifles being cleaned at the line. An injury, or worse, is not worth convenience!

Best,
Michael
 
Bolts

FYI, at the club photographed and posted in Wilbur's message, the club requires that "open bolt indicators" be placed in all firearms on all of the ranges when the range is "cold".To the best of my knowledge and decrepit memory, the bolts have been removed at prior matches. Of note is that the range is patrolled by Range Supervisors and no objection was made. The range store sells indicators that are inserted in place of the bolt, however, the irony is that you can't make purchases in the store unless you are wearing a members badge- doesn't make much sense to me. Wilbur's observation is appreciated and would have made a difference if he made a statement at the match and then made his post. This approach would be more impressive- the word spreads. I just got my HL Wickham bolt holsters out of my gun storage space. It was an honest error on the part of the shooters whom are subjected to the rules of as much as six rimfire disciplines.
Bob Pekaar
 
Bob

Yes, it would appear that I left the range and came here to stick a knife in the club's back. I spoke individually to some folks at the match and was comfortable with myself until I viewed the pictures. Seems that I'm not as "safety minded" as implied and need a little tweak as well.
 
Everyone,

I believe that you could visit any gun club in the world and find violations if your visit was on the right day. That is the reason that threads like this are so important for us from time to time.

I still believe that the safest direction to point a rifle while it is being cleaned at the range is downrange while no one is down there.

Dave S said:
I have never seen a cleaning rod shot downrange..:D
Dave
Click to expand...

And I haven't either.

Concho Bill
 
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