Vern juenke machine

L

Lou Murdica

Member
This machine has been around a long time now.
For those who have one , what do you think it is measuring .
And why do you think this.
Because you were told , or you read some were .
Or has anyone ever had a electrical engineer look at it.
We do know it is measuring some thing.
 
Lou, I tried to PM you but your box is full, but they measure uniformity around the jacket and deviations in jacket thickness from one bullet to the next or lot to lot. 4 divisions is a .001…… jim
 
jim1K said:
Lou, I tried to PM you but your box is full, but they measure uniformity around the jacket and deviations in jacket thickness from one bullet to the next or lot to lot. 4 divisions is a .001…… jim
Click to expand...

That's one thought . What proff do you have for this theory
 
Lou, I didn't want to get on here with this stuff,but the transducer is what they use to check nuclear tubing at Westinghouse and you even have to run the standard the same time period. Not theory, a 30 year practice…..jim
 
Jim,

What do you mean "don't want to get into it here?" This question has been asked off and on through the years and you are the first person I know of who's offered ANY indication of knowing what's going on......and what do you mean by "run the standard the time period?"

I think you're also saying that on any given jacket 4 divisions on the wiggly dial equals a thou of thickness???

al
 
Once you put a bullet and set it at middle 25,you start to run them jacket uniformity will be the way the pointer moves back and forth. Now you put the next one and instead of moving around the 25 it jumps up to 30 and the pointer moves the same amount but at 30. the uniformity is as good but the jacket is thicker the amount of divisions. every 1/2 hour you are to run the master bullet as a standard and re adjust if necessary. These are just examples, and i hope you get the picture. It must be warmed up with the bullet in place or you are making junk out of it……jim
 
If you put a solid piece of carbide it does the same.
if you put any metal on it, it's does the same .
i know it shows something .
 
Lou, i never did that but i did do different lots of Berger 105 hybrids and the ones that showed a thicker jacket were lighter than the ones withe thinner jacket. All i can tell you is check with westinghouse and see why they use the transducer to measure the thickness of of nuclear fuel tubes? They spin the tubes over it for the wall thickness and voids and it has a graph that records all the readings. …….jim
 
I not saying they don't . And I'm sure westinghouse equipment is a lot better than ours.
I'm not saying what it does I'm asking has anybody ever had the unit evaluated for what it really reads.
I've had mine for longer than I can remember . I would never sell it. I have had a couple of people look at it
That have nothing to do with shooting, but are involved in electronics. They both said no to what we believe it does. They both said it can not distinguish between the lead and the copper. But we're not sure.
Try a delltonic pin on one side then put the other side on . They show a different readings on mine.
 
I bought one within a yr of when they came out..... I've put everything from bullets to zebras on it. I've got boxes of "try bullets" and "index bullets" and "weird reading bullets" and can state with fair confidence that the dern thing repeats...... but repeats WHAT is, and has always been, my question.

Now I'ma' go section some cases....a thou huhh....

Heck, I can measure a thou with a tape measure, don't hardly need to section them!

al
 
Lou, There is no reason to go on if you already made up your mind, but if you put a solid rod on there how can it measure thickness? My first one was a 1988 with the small meter… jim
 
Jim my mind is not made up. I believe in this unit .i want some one to explain how it does what we think.
Do you understand this unit to we're you could build it with out coping it. I know there was a guy back east
That built some. Did he just copy it or did he have a understanding of what it takes to do these.
When it measures density for thickness how does it separate readings in the lead from the copper.
Let's say we are measuring the thickness of the jacket. If we spin the jacket before we make the bullet
And then after we make it. Will it be the same thickness or does the bullet making change the thickness of the jacket. If so is it when we core seat or point.
 
Lou, I have one of the new ones,The story i get is they did up grade the components. The only problem or should i say fallacy is it doesn't move along the bearing surface of the bullet. I think you need a read along the entire surface, but all you are trying to see is the uniformity of the jacket at that point. I did cases and it works well there also. Proof ? is on the target and records, it helps eliminate flyers,my groups are getting smaller and more consistent 2" is last year and i'm to the point of barrel quality is needed to get smaller …… jim
 
juenke machine

Lou and Jim

It does NOT measure the thickness uniformity of jackets either made into bullets or raw. Like you, Lou a customer of mine gave me one to test. I spun everything I could get on the machine and gained no understanding of what it was doing. I had 2 separate lots of jackets and tested both the raw jacket and the finished bullets. I don't remember the exact results but the jackets were a very good lot from J-4 and a very bad lot from another manufacture. The good measured nearly perfect (.0001-) as good as you could work/use a ball mike and the other lot were .001+ variation, which in BR is horrible. When the bullets were made, the bad lot spun better then the good. The bad lot (ball miked) shot OK for a varmint gun and the good lot (J-4) shot good for competition. A friend of mine who sold Ultrasonic equipment used the machine and couldn't determine what it was doing either. In many hobbies there are products that are supposed to do something to improve whatever it is your hobbies is. I recently got into audio; it is my belief that audio cables for the most part are one of those products that are often referred to as snake oil. Perhaps the juenke machine is one of the snake oil products. Now remember I said PERHAPS. As is with most hobbies if the user thinks it improves whatever they are doing then often it does. Just like with us benchrest shooters; the first great agg we shot with a given product it becomes our standard.

My best guess on the juenke machine is it could be measuring the material make-up. Bullet jackets like most everything is make up of different materials or whatever. Jackets are a gilding metal made up copper and something else. When the material is molten hot and then rolled into sheets, maybe the copper didn't mix all that well and thus you have more copper in certain parts of the jacket. Granted this is probably very small. Maybe the machine is looking at this make up??? Howver, all this being said when you call the manufacture of the machine and he refuses to explain what the machine does; wa-la snake oil. Someone call Vern and see if he'll explain his machine!!!

Again I say if you think it helps then by all means use it. Once, we as competitive shooters have what is considered the best made often what seperates the top of our sport is the mental aspect of the competition.

Gary Ocock
 
I guess i'll just sell them, if they don't work…… Gary you better call westinghouse and tell them they are not getting a correct measurement on there tubing because you said it doesn't work. They have 6000 engineers that don't know what they are doing……… jim
 
Jim I don't think we Westinghouse is using a Vern . Maybe they are not using it with lead in their tubes ether. That's why I would like someone that knows the technology come explain the Vern .
This Vern is not black and white. So that's why I question things when I don't understand it.
 
I have no idea how it works, but found the following interesting.
A friend had a very accurate F Class 6BR which all of a sudden started to shot gun, same load, same bullet lots, primers etc, played around with loads for ages, then I Juenked his bullets and found they were shocking, 20-35 or more deviations. I saw they were very pointed, much more force in the meplat pointer than mine with the same pills. We deduced he had used too much force when pointing bullets so he tried some of the bullets he had not pointed and were around 3-8 deviations and it started to shoot great again.
Had over pointing separated the jackets from the core and this is what the Juenke read?
 
No, westinghouse uses the the same technology with the transducer that measures the difference from a standard diameter (thickness)over the length of the tube. The Juenke measures difference of the standard (Bullet), People think it gives you a measurement in .001 but i think that is a not completely true,it measures the difference. It will show uniformity around a given diameter but it doesn't move. Now use the same bullet from one lot and check it against a new lot of the same to see if you have changed much some it does a lot. You can see voids,after i trim and point is when i use it to see if i caused any core separation. You want proof ? you prove it doesn't work…… you prove what makes a hummer barrel shoot through the wind ….. I do know one thing if warmed it up without a bullet in it you made junk. and just the same procedure as westinghouse you have to run the standard every 1/2 hour, strange right ……… jim
 
jim1K said:
I guess i'll just sell them, if they don't work…… Gary you better call westinghouse and tell them they are not getting a correct measurement on there tubing because you said it doesn't work. They have 6000 engineers that don't know what they are doing……… jim
Click to expand...

Jim, sell them if you want and while your at it You call Westinghouse. I never said anything about Westinghouseand their work; while your on the phone with the 6000 engineers invite them to bring their technology and shoot short range benchrest with us; we can use some additional shooters at the matches. My post is in reference to my experience with the Juenke machine and bullet quality. I omitted that my experience is with custom manufactured 6mm bullets, used only in short range Benchrest.

Gary
 
Gary, You think you should get a back and white measurement and why it works. What i said is the engineering department uses the same transducer but a larger scale. I do know some of the people that work there and the similarities of the Juenke to what they do. I do know about making short range bullets also, my friend makes or made a lot of record setting ones. I am no engineer and can't give the exact terms you seek to explain how it works,but it does. You could explain to me why a hummer barrel shoots through the wind,a top gunsmith and bullet maker i think would answer that, can't………. jim
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top