Using VV 133 and 68 FB match bullets, 6PPC ?
- Thread starter 308sako
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Boyd Allen
Active member
Gene Beggs says about 1.2 gr. Have you worked up a load?
308sako
New member
Boyd, Thank you for the reply... no I haven't as yet just getting started with a Hart Rifle Barrels 6 PPC, 1 in 14 at 21.5"
I have hopes to use some old 68 Berger bullets and brass from the original lot of Sako .220 Russian I have had laying around for ever.
Plan is to use some VV 133 or VV 130, last choice is the T32 that's also been sitting for too many years.
I also plan to shoot bullets soft seated, but into the lands about .010"'s and using light neck tension (about .0015")
Something should work!
I have hopes to use some old 68 Berger bullets and brass from the original lot of Sako .220 Russian I have had laying around for ever.
Plan is to use some VV 133 or VV 130, last choice is the T32 that's also been sitting for too many years.
I also plan to shoot bullets soft seated, but into the lands about .010"'s and using light neck tension (about .0015")
Something should work!
Boyd Allen
Active member
The 133 likes a lot of neck tension. With that and rifling marks that are about half as long as wide (specific to that bullet), you should be able to work up from 28.3, working up by .3. I think that you will find it the cleanest burning alternative. For me 130 has worked in cold weather, but has not held up in the heat.
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308sako
New member
Now I did not know that, and will size accordingly!
VV 130 was easier to make shoot but not as shearly accurate/precise as the 133.
Not my first Rodeo, replay of the last one Ha Ha
I would also recommend using H322 if this is your first 6ppc experience. I have a good friend that hangs around here quite a bit and he starts almost all new ppc shooters with H322. For good reason i might add. N133 can be difficult to tune or learn and i sure would hate for a new shooter to get to discouraged. Good luck and if you have any questions please Pm me and i will put you into contact with my friend. He is a good man with good intention, and he can help you. Lee
308sako, hard to tell from your posts if you are interested in developing loads for competition or are just wanting to shoot some nostalgia loads and have some fun.
I have been doing some load testing the last few months with my 6 PPC, looking to go competitive with it this season (if I can learn to shoot as good as it does). N133 is, for sure, the go-to powder for the 6 PPC and empiracal data vouches for its ability to do the job. But I believe N133 is finicky, hard to keep in tune and otherwise "high maintenance". But it sure does shoot when all the stars and planets are properly aligned. So I decided to try some other possibilities. I started with H322 and H4198 and got very good results and could make a case for either of them. I even had interesting results with Benchmark, but my recommendation above all others is IMR8208XBR. This is the most consistent, easy to use powder I've ever used. The physical properties of it are almost identical to H322 and it flows through my Harrell's powder measure flawlessly and does not require weighing of charges. With 66-gr. Euber FBs, 65-gr. Bart's BTs, and 65-gr. Berger BTs the acccuracy and consistency is unmatched.
I have been doing some load testing the last few months with my 6 PPC, looking to go competitive with it this season (if I can learn to shoot as good as it does). N133 is, for sure, the go-to powder for the 6 PPC and empiracal data vouches for its ability to do the job. But I believe N133 is finicky, hard to keep in tune and otherwise "high maintenance". But it sure does shoot when all the stars and planets are properly aligned. So I decided to try some other possibilities. I started with H322 and H4198 and got very good results and could make a case for either of them. I even had interesting results with Benchmark, but my recommendation above all others is IMR8208XBR. This is the most consistent, easy to use powder I've ever used. The physical properties of it are almost identical to H322 and it flows through my Harrell's powder measure flawlessly and does not require weighing of charges. With 66-gr. Euber FBs, 65-gr. Bart's BTs, and 65-gr. Berger BTs the acccuracy and consistency is unmatched.
308sako
New member
Well Sir, you have made my day. I've been working with IMR 8208 XBR in both my .308 F class rifle and several AR's with heavy bullet loads and have also found it to be exceptional performer. However, more importantly I have a bit more than a keg handy!
As to my intentions; they are to see if I can shoot well enough to try some local matches and if the true benchrest bug bites hard enough to reel me in so to speak. I don't think that my particular rifle is competitive, but if I can learn to shoot better than it can I will know I'm am on the correct track. I do not care what powder or which of the various bullets I have on hand shoot, just want it to do well on command.
Gentleman, thank you for the generous outpouring of experienced advice.
F
fishbone
Guest
Thanks for your post, and Skeetlee's comments. I'm a new BR shooter with a 6ppc/133 and feeling some frustration with load development. My target results show a glimmer of nodes in the fog, but not as decisively as I would like. A powder switch may be helpful.
For you guys who are new to the PPC and/or BR shooting, welcome and I sure hope you enjoy it. A couple of requirements are:
Patience in reloading. The cases need to be consistent in neck thickness and should be frequently trimmed to length. Use the best primers you can afford, but non-match primers work very well.
Learn to be consistent in your loading habits. Almost any caliber used in BR, especially the PPC, the powder will have to be slowly trickled or dropped through a long tube to get the "right" amount into the case and allow the bullet to be seated. Learn how to be very "repetitive" with your powder measure so that it gives you consistent charges.
I literally have spent hours throwing and weighing charges to improve my consistency. With small-kernel powders like 8208 and 322, most quality measures are capable of throwing accurately enough that you will not have to weigh every charge. There is a tremendous movement to the weigh-every-charge method and some guys have a fortune in scales, etc., but for short-range BR (100-200-300 yards) I know of no one who can shoot conditions well enough to notice +/- .01 of a grain. Time at the reloading bench sure beats wasting away in front of the TV and the results you will see at the range will put a smile on your face.
To excel at any sport requires the consistency of doing exactly the same thing every time. Learn to shoot free-recoil with any caliber you can. I find the one thing I can do every time is "nothing". No grip pressure, no cheek pressure, just set your shoulder to touch the butt enough to contain any setback during recoil. Most everyone has their own special way, but consistent bench manners is worth more than .01 gr. of powder any day.
Learn to be aware of the wind. To be competitive or even to do load development you must have wind flags. There is no substitute.
Enjoy, shoot as much as you can, in all the conditions you can. In BR, most of the time, the show goes on regardless of the weather.
Patience in reloading. The cases need to be consistent in neck thickness and should be frequently trimmed to length. Use the best primers you can afford, but non-match primers work very well.
Learn to be consistent in your loading habits. Almost any caliber used in BR, especially the PPC, the powder will have to be slowly trickled or dropped through a long tube to get the "right" amount into the case and allow the bullet to be seated. Learn how to be very "repetitive" with your powder measure so that it gives you consistent charges.
I literally have spent hours throwing and weighing charges to improve my consistency. With small-kernel powders like 8208 and 322, most quality measures are capable of throwing accurately enough that you will not have to weigh every charge. There is a tremendous movement to the weigh-every-charge method and some guys have a fortune in scales, etc., but for short-range BR (100-200-300 yards) I know of no one who can shoot conditions well enough to notice +/- .01 of a grain. Time at the reloading bench sure beats wasting away in front of the TV and the results you will see at the range will put a smile on your face.
To excel at any sport requires the consistency of doing exactly the same thing every time. Learn to shoot free-recoil with any caliber you can. I find the one thing I can do every time is "nothing". No grip pressure, no cheek pressure, just set your shoulder to touch the butt enough to contain any setback during recoil. Most everyone has their own special way, but consistent bench manners is worth more than .01 gr. of powder any day.
Learn to be aware of the wind. To be competitive or even to do load development you must have wind flags. There is no substitute.
Enjoy, shoot as much as you can, in all the conditions you can. In BR, most of the time, the show goes on regardless of the weather.
Boyd Allen
Active member
I would add one thing to what ReedG posted. There are very successful short range benchrest shooters that shoot free recoil, and some very successful shooters that definitely do not. The point being that it is a good idea to try different shooting styles and use what works best for you, and your equipment. His point about practicing with the powder measure is a good one. Also, loading at the range is very much the rule in short range benchrest. This is not simply a matter of custom. Experience has taught that making fine adjustments to one's load, as conditions change, produces a higher level of average accuracy throughout the day. If you want to shoot like a competitive benchrest shooter, load like one.
F
fishbone
Guest
What is a good starting weight for H322, H4198 and IMR 8208 XBR in the 6ppc?
B
Belton45
Guest
Would like to know as well for the xbr8208. I have about 6lbs of it.
C
caroby
Guest
Reed and Boyd, great reads guys... Solid info for the new and not so new to Point-blank BR...
Fishbone, the ole statement of "work-up" is true but pay particular attention when using H322 in the lower end loads.. IMOP. 3150-3250.... Tunes-up perty solid.. Won't wreck cases "down there" either... "Tune out the vertical point" of
3210fps+ is generally the case... But I have had a few barrels that would shoot a DOT @ 3160-3180 and no load vertical issues. Go for a Light seating rifling mark 1/2 the width of the lands is a good medium... Go .002 to .003 in and out from this mark, believe ya can't go wrong...
But.......... H322 can "get ya" in the HEAT of Summer.... So, you may find that < 3200fps "can" shine in that Summer Heat too..!
Good luck,
cale
I don't, as a rule, publish load data because of there being so many variables in chambers and barrels that what is moderate in one rifle may well be too hot in another. Because of the fact that none of my loads have any signs whatever of pressure and are not over many other published data, I will give you my best accuracy loads:
H322 -- 28.0
H4198 -- 24.5
IMR8208XBR -- 30.4
N133 -- 29.3
Please be responsible and start at least a grain below any of these and work up. Also be aware that H4198 (Hodgdon) load data is not transferable to IMR4198. The new IMR8208XBR is not the same as "the old" 8208. These loads are all for modern recent batches of the listed powders using CCI BR4 and Federal 205 primers.
I always work up loads using three-shot groups with a spread of .3 or .4 grain of powder. As an example, to find the IMR8208 accuracy load I went to the range (still too cold to load at the range) with six three-shot sets using 65-gr. Bart's BT bullets at 28.8, 29.2, 29.6, 30.0, 30.4, 30.8; all seated +10 into the lands of a 6 PPC with .262" neck. When I find which one of these loads grouped the best, I then load three-shot sets with that load and vary the seating depth at -10, -5, @, +5, +10, +15 to find the correct seating length. This simple process will almost certainly determine what your barrel wants.
I have not chronographed any of these, but will when the weather gets a bit more user-friendly. I really don't care what the speed is, only what size group they shoot. I do, however, have fellow shooters who load to a specific fps for their accuracy node. There is always more than one way to skin the cat.
H322 -- 28.0
H4198 -- 24.5
IMR8208XBR -- 30.4
N133 -- 29.3
Please be responsible and start at least a grain below any of these and work up. Also be aware that H4198 (Hodgdon) load data is not transferable to IMR4198. The new IMR8208XBR is not the same as "the old" 8208. These loads are all for modern recent batches of the listed powders using CCI BR4 and Federal 205 primers.
I always work up loads using three-shot groups with a spread of .3 or .4 grain of powder. As an example, to find the IMR8208 accuracy load I went to the range (still too cold to load at the range) with six three-shot sets using 65-gr. Bart's BT bullets at 28.8, 29.2, 29.6, 30.0, 30.4, 30.8; all seated +10 into the lands of a 6 PPC with .262" neck. When I find which one of these loads grouped the best, I then load three-shot sets with that load and vary the seating depth at -10, -5, @, +5, +10, +15 to find the correct seating length. This simple process will almost certainly determine what your barrel wants.
I have not chronographed any of these, but will when the weather gets a bit more user-friendly. I really don't care what the speed is, only what size group they shoot. I do, however, have fellow shooters who load to a specific fps for their accuracy node. There is always more than one way to skin the cat.
F
fishbone
Guest
I'll be ordering IMR 8208 XBR this week for some testing. Thanks
"I'll be ordering IMR 8208 XBR this week for some testing. Thanks "
I wouldn't but that's just my experience. You and your rifle will have to determine your own results. I did have one shilen barrel a couple years ago that shot the xbr but i haven't had a single barrel since then that would. I think there are better choices. H322 being one of them, if not the top one. Also if you can find some the latest pull down 8208 that made its rounds last summer is a great powder. I find it to have a very wide load window. I can shoot anywhere from 28.4gr to 29.2 grains of that stuff and the target looks no different. That is with the proper seating depth of course. I love the stuff! Also there will be some new T powder hitting the market before long " I hope" so dont buy to much of any one powder just yet. If you want to try a pound of the 8208XBR that would be a wise choice possibly. Just dont go buy 8lb of it just yet. This is my opinion and my finding, others will certainly vary. Good luck and have fun. Lee
I wouldn't but that's just my experience. You and your rifle will have to determine your own results. I did have one shilen barrel a couple years ago that shot the xbr but i haven't had a single barrel since then that would. I think there are better choices. H322 being one of them, if not the top one. Also if you can find some the latest pull down 8208 that made its rounds last summer is a great powder. I find it to have a very wide load window. I can shoot anywhere from 28.4gr to 29.2 grains of that stuff and the target looks no different. That is with the proper seating depth of course. I love the stuff! Also there will be some new T powder hitting the market before long " I hope" so dont buy to much of any one powder just yet. If you want to try a pound of the 8208XBR that would be a wise choice possibly. Just dont go buy 8lb of it just yet. This is my opinion and my finding, others will certainly vary. Good luck and have fun. Lee
F
fishbone
Guest
Thanks for all the suggestions, guys.
I have seen very good results with the 8208. I haven't done nearly enough testing to identify the best load, but 28.8 grs with 0.010" jam show consistent groups vs "some good some open" groups with n-133.
I shot my first score match with this 'guess' load in stiff switchy winds and mirage to score 249-11x....the wind pushed one out of the 10 ring.
The POI is very predictable in a dead calm. Now to read flags.
I have seen very good results with the 8208. I haven't done nearly enough testing to identify the best load, but 28.8 grs with 0.010" jam show consistent groups vs "some good some open" groups with n-133.
I shot my first score match with this 'guess' load in stiff switchy winds and mirage to score 249-11x....the wind pushed one out of the 10 ring.
The POI is very predictable in a dead calm. Now to read flags.
Andy Cross
New member
H322 in Oz
I will have my new PPC in a couple of months. Have a supply of N133 but would like to test H322 as well. Hodgon isn't sold in Oz but I know they get the powder from ADI here in Oz. Does anyone know what the ADI number for H322 is.
Andy.
I will have my new PPC in a couple of months. Have a supply of N133 but would like to test H322 as well. Hodgon isn't sold in Oz but I know they get the powder from ADI here in Oz. Does anyone know what the ADI number for H322 is.
Andy.