USA Production Class

Bob,

Excellent points and the one that should be the top priority, " I will not turn one single shooter away."

Again, simple rules and some old fashioned common sense. If it looks like a production class air rifle, it probably is.

Factory adjustments, removing iron sights or barrel bands, retail pricing and equipment no longer manufactured should be fine. There will always be judgement calls but they should not be a big deal.

Send your scores in, they will count, you can play. No need to muddle through.
 
Steve,

"As an organization, we will support all air rifle benchrest competitions in association with our partners around the country."

The quote is from the United States Air Rifle Benchrest mission statement.

We do NOT want to create rules that are obstacles to your giving this sport a try.

We DO want to support you and other shooters. The rules are important but everyone should recognize the difference between the letter of the rules and the spirit of the rules.

I second your motion, let's get on with shooting.
 
I'm glad were promoting "inclusion"... and..

I still see a big problem in our plan.. if our plan is to add new shooters... Think about what made the AZ bench rest shoot so popular (over 40 shooters and a good part new to BR).. What guns does one see lined up on the benches? Lot's of hunting type rigs like Daystates, Air Arms and FXs.. all over our "Production" price limit. I'd guess that 3/4 of those guys wouldn't make our cut.. That's a problem, isn't it? We really don't need a price limit.. just "Unmodified" in my humble opinion... IF we are trying to grow the sport.

Wacky Wayne
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
Wayne,

A "no price limit" is fine, if you and Mike Hopkins believe this is the best direction for this trial. To the outsider looking in, an EV-2, Steyr or TM1000 pitted against a Marauder or Discovery does not appear to be a level playing field.

Nevertheless, we are trying to grow the sport.
 
Cris,

" an EV-2, Steyr or TM1000 " are not "Production" class air guns.. Production to me means sporter stock, like an Air Arms S400, Daystate Huntsmen, BSA Lonestar, FX Whisper, those kind of air guns.. hunting & plinking rigs..not target air guns.. I'd guess that of all the air guns sold... the sporter/hunting rigs are the biggest part of the market anyway.. In my humble opinion, that's where the most new shooters are lurking waiting to play with us. The " EV-2, Steyr or TM1000"s can play in LV, HV or Open classes now..

Really it should just be very open on rules... a level playing field is not that necessary, just leave it up to the Match Director at the local level.. If the class works out, and it's time for a national championship or something.. then we can tweak the details of the "Production" class rules (if necessary), as that time approaches (many months ahead, I hope)... anyway..

I'll start arm wresting with Mike and Ron:) ... gonna see em this Wed.

Wacky Wayne
 
Going out a short sturdy limb...

I don't shoot airgun benchrest but I'm convinced that over time it could become quite popular.

I'm assuming that those involved in this discussion could be considered "leaders" of the game. If that's true, I would like to offer a suggestion that is based on experience. It's easy to say "trying to grow the sport" as a basis for a concept but that's where the easy part ends. My suggestion is to establish a set of rules that are easily understood, not ambiguous, and agree to live with those rules for a couple of years.

As established airgunners, ask yourselves this question...Am I going to participate in this new class I'm proposing? If that question gives you pause, and it will, then it probably ain't a good idea. The only draw that benchrest shooting has is that folks can compete head to head with the best by paying the entry fee.

And finally, the thought that if we can get them to show up once they'll come back simply ain't true. They're either coming back or they ain't and that's pre-determined genetically.
 
And finally, the thought that if we can get them to show up once they'll come back simply ain't true. They're either coming back or they ain't and that's pre-determined genetically.

The key then, it seems to me, is to get those that are genetically predetermined to come back to show up once.

DISCLAIMER: I don't shoot air gun benchrest, but it does seem very interesting to me.

Ryan
 
Wayne,

We should hope for such a problem with 3 or four Dicovery Maruader and Pnuma. Having three shooters with more expensive rigs is a problem that can be solved. As you know in AAFTA a match director can specify a class that suits his local club members. If a Daystate Hunter guy in the high price range shows up, specify his equipment turn in a score and see if other clubs have shooters that fit that set up. The market will define the classes a year from now.

What do you think of my idea of using the 50 meter target with the bigger 10 ring during this test for for new and basic class.

I agree with Wilbur. The genetic make will determine who continues. We are or are not competitors.

Bob
 
Wayne,

I just went to Airguns of Arizona & looked at some of the "sporter" rifles you mentioned. You are talking $1700! Sorry, but that is not a price that will attract new shooters - at least not THIS new shooter. Let's stick with $700 to attract new shooters. $2,300 (by the time you scope a Daystate) is not going to attract a new shooter people!

The humble opinion of an uninformed potential new shooter following this thread with great interest.

Steve W.
 
Steve,

Get with Wayne, Mike and Ron on Wednesday and give your input, it is important.

Wayne,

It must be me, so forgive me, but looking at the stock does not seem to be a very objective method of distinguishing a "sporter" air rifle from a "target" air rifle. Good luck with your arm wrestling.
 
It's really all good anyway, cause the higher priced "sporter" air guns could still shoot in the Open or HV class, and as Bob Z said, the match director can just note what folks were shooting.. or group em if enough show up, like we do in field target. I think we should let the match director call it, as they read the shooter for if they might feel outclassed.. make em feel comfortable, where ever that seems to be... If a really new shooter with a high priced rig shows up, just let em shoot production class and make a note of it on the report.... it should not be a big deal at this entry level of things.

Bob the 50m target at 25 would be fine too, except not all clubs have both on hand.. (but could get some easy enough).. but anyway, whatever ya got for these local matches seems fine to me.. But if we were shooting a championship "Production" match, we could use the 50m target if we want.. seems like a good idea to me.

Wacky Wayne
 
Now we have USA -Springer, World LV, World HV, USA Open, USA Unlimited . It wood seam to me that often when the USA gets involved in a shooting sport we try to change it to suet us , or Americanize it . The high end production rifles that are being talked about fit into the USA Open class. I wood like to see us stay with our 5 classes and at each shoot offer a shoot for fun target ( not as tough as the world target ) . All rifles ,and pistols that do not fit one of the 5 classes can shoot for fun . No class, no championship , shoot what you bring .
 
Wayne,

I just went to Airguns of Arizona & looked at some of the "sporter" rifles you mentioned. You are talking $1700! Sorry, but that is not a price that will attract new shooters - at least not THIS new shooter. Let's stick with $700 to attract new shooters. $2,300 (by the time you scope a Daystate) is not going to attract a new shooter people!

The humble opinion of an uninformed potential new shooter following this thread with great interest.

Steve W.

A quick question and i'll butt out....I know I don't belong in this discussion.

As a potential new shooter, do you see yourself ever buying one of those more expensive rifles?
 
Wilbur we need and welcome every ones thoughts . Well shooting a lot of center fire varmint rifles 5 -6 years a go I got back into a cheap springer air rifle . That lead to a better springer , then a bunch of 10 M rifles and pistols , then hunting pistols ,then PCP then Air Rifle bench rest . 5 years back if some one had told me I wood spend $2,000 on a air rifle , I wood have not be leaved so . But by selling fishing stuff , motorcycles , and firearms , I have been lucky to get into the great sport of Air Rifle Bench Rest and shoot for the USA at the worlds . I have met many great people and had a lot of fun . There is no end to the fascination you can have with air rifle and air rifle bench rest .
 
Getting started:

About 16 or so years ago I introduced the idea of Rimfire Benchrest at a club I use to be a member of. A number of people were interested in the beginning but as people started getting better guns and learned about finding ammo the rifles prefered,etc folks began to drop out. We got down to a core of 6 or 7 shooters. We then began to get folks from other places who shot similar games to us and we had a great time.

The next year, the level of rifle quality had grown and the ammo chase became more difficult as scores got better and by the third year, there were not many people left and we found other things to do. Some of us got into CF benchrest and, in not very long, bought the rifles and associated equipment to compete with.

I see similaraties to what I exerienced and what is going on here. I believe that trying to make Production Air RIfles shoot well is as futile as it was with RF rifles. A few of them will shoot well but, in general, most of them will not be competative. It's one thing to learn a sport with state of the art equipment, and then the frustration of trying to learn with equipment that is not capable of winning. Those of us who love the Benchrest Sports have been willing to do what we could do to be competative.

I don't see that this effort will be any different than What we experienced way back then and even today. All of us are still looking for those "World Class" lots of ammo or even pellets, I am guessing. It's the sport itself that demands perfection, not the rules. There will always be those few rifles, even low end ones, that will be winners but in the Production end of things, a lot fewer than either Rifles made for competition by factories and/or customs. Personally, I don't want to spend $700 or 800 to end up with a rifle that will never be capable of winning consistently. I know that going in, from years of jousting windmills. I know where the road leads and I want to avoid the broken hearts along that road and go around it, to the destination that experienced people know about.

As Wilbur has said, being a competitor is a genetic situation. There is no way to make people become something they are not. A better solution is to present the sport to existing competitors and see where it goes. It's nice to be able to shoot rifles that do not recoil and are quiet enough to not need hearing protection. The challence of the actual shooting to me seems about the same as the other Benchrest I do. The idea of the savings in Ammo cost is very appealing to me, along with those other things I like but it's about the only place to save much, it looks to me.

This is not unlike the evolution of Moto-Cross. I was racing bikes in what were called Scramble Races when the European Motorcycle Manufacturers sent their top riders over here to show us how to race Moto-cross. Torston Holman, Joel Roberts, Jeff Smith and others who's names I don't recall right now. It didn't take long for other Makers to get involved, even though it took them a few years to make bikes that could win. I paid $600. for my first Red Tank CZ, new in the box. It was somewhat competative and took a couple of years, at least, off my learning curve. It wasn't a "Works" bike but it was head and shoulders above the modified production bikes folks were trying to win with.

We are in the same situatin here, just two or more decades behind it.
 
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Pete,

How about a little "what if".

What if, in the past 30 years, there is a new breed of shooter. One that wants a more relaxing, less OCD-type, of competitive shooting.

What if the pendulum has swung back and new parents might want to teach their children about firearms and the shooting sports but in a less expensive, less intimidating manner with air guns and pellets.

What if a shooter, with those special genetic gifts, has to decide between club membership, gas and food for his children and needs to stay in a production class but still be the best he can be.

Only time will tell if any of our efforts have made any difference. The real question should be, will we allow the past decide and do nothing or will we try.
 
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Pete,

I'm sure there are a lot of shooters like yourself, that are only interested in winning... and don't want equipment, or to waste time in any effort that doesn't lead to the winners circle... BUT, I hope that there are some more folks out there like me, who are in the game to be with friends and have fun. Sure it's great to win, but not everyone can win, and if winning is the only thing to bring you pleasure, then, for sure our ranks are bound to drop in numbers.

IF the sport is to grow, then we have to attract more folks like myself and less folks like you... or we'll only have a few guys who win most of the time, and very few others in our fold. IF we don't make it fun to come to a match.. win or lose, then we are in big trouble in our effort to grow the sport.

I think the goal here with the "Production" class is to make a place for the folks who would come for fun... and friendship.. and if they win.. that's great.. but not the only reason to come to a match...

You can buy the best rig you can find and join in the HV, LV or Open classes.. all is good... we welcome you!

Wacky Wayne,
Match Director,
Ashland Air Rifle Range
 
As a potential new shooter, do you see yourself ever buying one of those more expensive rifles?

Hi Wilbur,

There is no need to butt out of the discussion! The short answer to your question is that I do not ever see me buying a $2,000 plus air rifle set up. This is not to say that I am against them. If others want to make the investment, that is fine. I have put several thousands of dollars into high end IHMSA metallic silhouette pistols however; thus, I am not opposed to that type of expenditure. I just do not see me making that investment in this venue.

Steve W.
 
I don't see that this effort will be any different than What we experienced way back then and even today. All of us are still looking for those "World Class" lots of ammo or even pellets, I am guessing. It's the sport itself that demands perfection, not the rules. There will always be those few rifles, even low end ones, that will be winners but in the Production end of things, a lot fewer than either Rifles made for competition by factories and/or customs. Personally, I don't want to spend $700 or 800 to end up with a rifle that will never be capable of winning consistently. I know that going in, from years of jousting windmills. I know where the road leads and I want to avoid the broken hearts along that road and go around it, to the destination that experienced people know about.

Pete,

I am making one really big assumption here and that is that Production entries are competing against Production entries only and not $3,000 FWB/Nightforce equipped rifles. That said, "winning" is not going to be 250x75. I recognize that going in. However, using a Production class rifle does not mean that I can't be competitive IN THAT CLASS. As in IHMSA handgun silhouette competition, I see my biggest competitor as being ME! My goal is to improve.

I played with Wacky Wayne's Marauder last Saturday. There was one thing that I learned, and that is that I have a lot to learn. As I shot a Hunter class Field Target pistol entry that took most of my time, I was only able to shoot through on one card. But, I found it a fun and interesting experience, and I even has a few hits that were 10X! (Then Wayne had to tell me he had hung a 50 meter target instead of a 25 meter target.) :)

We have multiple classes in IHMSA, Production, Unlimited, classes with iron sights and classes with scopes only. Some shooters elect to shoot only specific classes (or disciplines such as AIR only). Others branch out into many of our disciplines. I know some shooters that shoot only Standing events. We do our best to be inclusive and tell potential new shooters that they should not be intimidated by those of us with $3,000 whiz bang pistols, they they should shoot what they have or begin with minimal investment until they decide what they feel most comfortable with. Plus, we understand that not everyone can afford or wants to expend $3,000 on a full custom gun.

There is no reason why this game cannot be as inclusive.

I realize that I am 1 of 1 here (an uninitiated newbie), but all I am really asking is the opportunity to get into this game with minimal outlay.

Steve W.
 
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