How may were shot with 22s? I thought IBS didn't keep track of WOs. If nobody thought 30s didn't have an advantage very few would shoot them. How many 30s competed last year at the Super Shoot? And what won?...just sayin.
Rick
UBR target mis-sized, favors smaller caliber.
- Thread starter R.G. Robinett
- Start date
How may were shot with 22s? I thought IBS didn't keep track of WOs. If nobody thought 30s didn't have an advantage very few would shoot them. How many 30s competed last year at the Super Shoot? And what won?...just sayin.
Rick
Pete Wass
Well-known member
How many 22's?
I guess my point was the 6PPC really wasn't a slouch in the hands of someone who could run one. Considering groups are groups, why aren't there more .22@ the Super Shoot? I think the answer is pretty simple. I don't follow Group but I think Wayne Campbell use to, at least, shoot a .22 but he's the only one I can think of.
The first two 250-25's were retired because they didn't count wipeouts then. I suppose after they finally could believe someone COULD shoot a 250-25, they needed a way to break ties, ergo the wipeouts.
Pete
I guess my point was the 6PPC really wasn't a slouch in the hands of someone who could run one. Considering groups are groups, why aren't there more .22@ the Super Shoot? I think the answer is pretty simple. I don't follow Group but I think Wayne Campbell use to, at least, shoot a .22 but he's the only one I can think of.
The first two 250-25's were retired because they didn't count wipeouts then. I suppose after they finally could believe someone COULD shoot a 250-25, they needed a way to break ties, ergo the wipeouts.
Pete
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I don't recall anyone saying that a 6 couldn't compete with a 30 in score shooting. But competing and having equal opportunity is different. I can't understand why no one will admit that the larger bullet gives the shooter an advantage. This is a lot like liberals refusing to answer Tucker Carlson's questions. Just admit it, it won't change a thing and it will only hurt a little. Come to think of it, are you saying that if the overwhelming majority of the 30BR shooters were better they could easily shoot 6s instead?
BTW- the longer this discussion goes on the more will see it. This is a lot like voters. I won't change IBS/NBRSA shooters minds and you won't change UBR shooters minds, but the people who are on the sidelines will see who's telling the truth and UBR will continue to draw interest and will increase. Thanks Pete.
Rick
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LW Moore
Member
Ya missed us West Virginians on the list there, We were with ya from the start..
jackie schmidt
New member
While I don't adhere to this premis, many shooters believe that the added recoil of the 30 makes up for for any advantage it has in Bullet diameter.
A typical 30 caliber Varmint for Score Rifle will have considerable more recoil than a typical 6mm. In fact, my 10.5 pound 6PPC feels downright mild compared to my 13.5 pound 30.
I would amagine a 22 PPC Short would even be less recoil.
I doubt the UBR creators considered this.
Mike Ratican proved that a 22 short PPC was as deadly in Group as any PPC. The reason most Shot a 6PPC was because of the now defunct Sporter rule that required a bullet diameter of .23.
I am surprised that we have not seen a resurgence of the 22 cal in Group. Granted, making the cases is not fun, but them making 30 BR cases is no picnic either.
Nice post Greyfox
Rick, I've known you for a while now and you've stated and posted some pretty profound and timely stuff before on a host of subjects. I want to commend you for your second and especially your third paragraphs. Excellent IMHO, and you address the challenge of bringing in new shooters that are staying in the sport. That is indeed important. I've shot score, group, UBR, and a bunch of varmint matches. And am in total agreement with you that which game is best is a side note. Danny and you fellows did a lot of good thinking and planning to put this UBR on the map. And I can attest first hand that it is growing. We are planning to put a couple on at our club this year for that very reason.
One item that I'd offer is that the folks and ranges that you fellows have that is just as attractive as the format, is the "People" part of shooting. Every UBR match that I've attended down that way has been well run, fair, and at one of the matches I attended there were upwards of 30 or so shooters and we conversed with every single one of them and were made to feel welcome and appreciated. This is also one of the reasons I enjoy attending the Super Shoot, the folks that put on the shoot always make us feel welcome and appreciated.
Finally, if some of the shooters who think UBR is a gimmick would put aside some of their bias on which discipline, caliber, etc is best yada yada, and just go shoot and have fun at it, it would attract even more than it does. JMHO. WD
Rick, I've known you for a while now and you've stated and posted some pretty profound and timely stuff before on a host of subjects. I want to commend you for your second and especially your third paragraphs. Excellent IMHO, and you address the challenge of bringing in new shooters that are staying in the sport. That is indeed important. I've shot score, group, UBR, and a bunch of varmint matches. And am in total agreement with you that which game is best is a side note. Danny and you fellows did a lot of good thinking and planning to put this UBR on the map. And I can attest first hand that it is growing. We are planning to put a couple on at our club this year for that very reason.
One item that I'd offer is that the folks and ranges that you fellows have that is just as attractive as the format, is the "People" part of shooting. Every UBR match that I've attended down that way has been well run, fair, and at one of the matches I attended there were upwards of 30 or so shooters and we conversed with every single one of them and were made to feel welcome and appreciated. This is also one of the reasons I enjoy attending the Super Shoot, the folks that put on the shoot always make us feel welcome and appreciated.
Finally, if some of the shooters who think UBR is a gimmick would put aside some of their bias on which discipline, caliber, etc is best yada yada, and just go shoot and have fun at it, it would attract even more than it does. JMHO. WD
jackie schmidt
New member
As for the caliber thing, I still think the UBR should have started at 1/2 inch for the 22 with a 1/16 dot and made all subsequent targets for larger calibers proportionally smaller.
If the NBRSA ever does adopt for a caliber neutral target in VFS, I would politic for it to be done in that manner.
If the NBRSA ever does adopt for a caliber neutral target in VFS, I would politic for it to be done in that manner.
jimmymac
J McGregor
No dog in the fight,
but if there is no advantage to shooting a 30BR in IBS and NBRSA score shoots why is it dominated by that caliber? It certainly can't be because guys like the extra recoil.
I'm going to try to make a couple of these UBR matches this season. Far as I can tell, I can shoot two classes with my bone stock 22-250 and my old but new to me 6 PPC.
but if there is no advantage to shooting a 30BR in IBS and NBRSA score shoots why is it dominated by that caliber? It certainly can't be because guys like the extra recoil.
I'm going to try to make a couple of these UBR matches this season. Far as I can tell, I can shoot two classes with my bone stock 22-250 and my old but new to me 6 PPC.
Good answer Rick. Almost everyone I know that has shot UBR likes it. Great guys to shoot with and you can shoot about any rifle you want, I have always felt welcomed when I went to shoot one of their matches. Like Rick said it is very easy to get set up to shoot a match as they are very helpful with targets and all the details. You better be on top of your game of you will get humbled real fast shooting with them. Southern hospitality ends when you set down at the bench!!!
John
Mike Hibbs
New member
Looking forward to another year shooting the UBR matches at Braxton County Gun Owners Range. Come out and enjoy a great time. It can be very addictive..
Actually, as I understand it, Danny Hensley considered all this when he designed the targets to be caliber neutral. He felt it would be good for the sport to make it possible for all three the popular match calibers to used in the sport. We've found that to be a good thing. Personally, I shoot, more often than not, a 220 Beggs and you can check my record. I have done OK with it and have shot that cartridge in every class except Factory. Some people, including Danny, still prefer the 30s, most have chosen to compete with some form of 6, but several are migrating to the 22. I expect to see a lot more wins from the 220 Beggs this year. I hope some of them are mine.
To comment on your other post, I don't see anything wrong with your idea about another target. But I don't see any reason to change what we have either. Possibly if you change some minds within the NBRSA, you can be called upon to design their next target.
Rick
Hunter
Chasin' the Sunset
Rick, I looked at the SSOY list and it looks like a little less than 200 competitors is much closer to the real number of shooters. I don't know the background of most of those shooters; however, I recognize at least 10% of them as having shot BR at other venues. I wonder how many "new shooters" UBR is drawing v. providing additional opportunities for existing BR shooters -- both of which are good.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
As to new shooters,
I basically quit shooting IBS matches 5 or 6 years ago. I decided to focus on IR 50/50, sold my CF rifles and replaced them with RF rifles. Since then, there have been a number of new faces show up at those matches. Some of we older folks, not so much any more but new people, some who just decided to try it. Some of them started with 6 PPC's and a couple have stuck with them. I don't think the caliber is the issue, there is plenty more for a new shooter to learn to deal with other than the caliber.
Looking back, it has amazed me all the new shooters in the North and South Carolina area. A new big range and chezam, a bunch of new shooters I had never heard of. I think and don't know for sure but it appears to me that Score Shooting is growing. As I said, I haven't really been interested in a long time until recently and may go back at it a bit more.
If there were UBR matches close to me I would likely try one, I have nothing against them but also see nothing wrong with IBS or NBRSA Score matches. A game is a game and if one decides to play, they are in for whatever the rules say. At the end of the day, the person with the best equipment, with the best memory for conditions and has put some time into shooting is likely to win. I just don't see UBR as a do all end all. It's a game like the others.I don't see it as a fairness issue and never have. I need 3 more IBS Agg patches to make 100. I doubt I will live long enough to luck into them
.
Pete
I basically quit shooting IBS matches 5 or 6 years ago. I decided to focus on IR 50/50, sold my CF rifles and replaced them with RF rifles. Since then, there have been a number of new faces show up at those matches. Some of we older folks, not so much any more but new people, some who just decided to try it. Some of them started with 6 PPC's and a couple have stuck with them. I don't think the caliber is the issue, there is plenty more for a new shooter to learn to deal with other than the caliber.
Looking back, it has amazed me all the new shooters in the North and South Carolina area. A new big range and chezam, a bunch of new shooters I had never heard of. I think and don't know for sure but it appears to me that Score Shooting is growing. As I said, I haven't really been interested in a long time until recently and may go back at it a bit more.
If there were UBR matches close to me I would likely try one, I have nothing against them but also see nothing wrong with IBS or NBRSA Score matches. A game is a game and if one decides to play, they are in for whatever the rules say. At the end of the day, the person with the best equipment, with the best memory for conditions and has put some time into shooting is likely to win. I just don't see UBR as a do all end all. It's a game like the others.I don't see it as a fairness issue and never have. I need 3 more IBS Agg patches to make 100. I doubt I will live long enough to luck into them
.Pete
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mwezell
Mike Ezell
I basically quit shooting IBS matches 5 or 6 years ago. I decided to focus on IR 50/50, sold my CF rifles and replaced them with RF rifles. Since then, there have been a number of new faces show up at those matches. Some of we older folks, not so much any more but new people, some who just decided to try it. Some of them started with 6 PPC's and a couple have stuck with them. I don't think the caliber is the issue, there is plenty more for a new shooter to learn to deal with other than the caliber.
Looking back, it has amazed me all the new shooters in the North and South Carolina area. A new big range and chezam, a bunch of new shooters I had never heard of. I think and don't know for sure but it appears to me that Score Shooting is growing. As I said, I haven't really been interested in a long time until recently and may go back at it a bit more.
If there were UBR matches close to me I would likely try one, I have nothing against them but also see nothing wrong with IBS or NBRSA Score matches. A game is a game and if one decides to play, they are in for whatever the rules say. At the end of the day, the person with the best equipment, with the best memory for conditions and has put some time into shooting is likely to win. I just don't see UBR as a do all end all. It's a game like the others.I don't see it as a fairness issue and never have. I need 3 more IBS Agg patches to make 100. I doubt I will live long enough to luck into them
Pete
I agree Pete, it's another game. I also think it's only natural for score to grow..it's much easier to hold the matches. To have any kind of matches, we need places to have them and people to run them, first. Group has inherent difficulties that it presents to the clubs and those running the matches. It is what it is and I don't think there is any way to fix that.
With UBR, one person, with a little help from appointed referees, can literally run a 2-3 relay, 2 yardage grand agg match in one day and get to shoot a gun himself, and still get done at a decent time. Most matches in my area are about 6 hours long. Of course you still need to get there early to set up and it takes a little time to pack and get ready to drive off. This allows a good number of shooters to be home before dark during shooting season. It doesn't require several days off from work, which are hard for young shooters to explain to employers and spousal units. Therein lies a lot of the trouble recruiting new shooters. Any sport that relies too heavily on retirees that can afford to play a moderately expensive game as a hobby, to survive, is destined to fight a very uphill battle.
BR in general is a great game and has a lot to offer new shooters but telling a new shooter he needs to schedule a few days off to drive a few hundred miles to go shoot a rifle, several times a year...is viewed as quite an imposition, to the point where very, very few are able to do it.
More ranges and more willing volunteers are "biggley" crucial to perspective new shooters due to proximity factors that affect time, travel and costs to get involved. I don't think equipment costs are a driving factor, personally, as many young people play golf, which is a sport that is comparable in cost to play. Some are into motorsports, which is quite a bit MORE expensive to get involved in..but a lot of these perspective new shooters do it if there is a drag strip or circle track in a nearby town. They get hooked on those sports just as they can ours. That's when the willingness to travel and dedicate time comes...after they are hooked. We make time for our hobbies but getting started in our sport is daunting to anyone who has never tried it, and most of them would say we're nuts for going to the lengths that we do, just to shoot a gun against a bunch of old men. They're probably correct!
That said...I LOVE it and I'm PASSIONATE about it. That's why I'm here.
J
Jim Pag
Guest
I basically quit shooting IBS matches 5 or 6 years ago. I decided to focus on IR 50/50, sold my CF rifles and replaced them with RF rifles. Since then, there have been a number of new faces show up at those matches. Some of we older folks, not so much any more but new people, some who just decided to try it. Some of them started with 6 PPC's and a couple have stuck with them. I don't think the caliber is the issue, there is plenty more for a new shooter to learn to deal with other than the caliber.
Looking back, it has amazed me all the new shooters in the North and South Carolina area. A new big range and chezam, a bunch of new shooters I had never heard of. I think and don't know for sure but it appears to me that Score Shooting is growing. As I said, I haven't really been interested in a long time until recently and may go back at it a bit more.
If there were UBR matches close to me I would likely try one, I have nothing against them but also see nothing wrong with IBS or NBRSA Score matches. A game is a game and if one decides to play, they are in for whatever the rules say. At the end of the day, the person with the best equipment, with the best memory for conditions and has put some time into shooting is likely to win. I just don't see UBR as a do all end all. It's a game like the others.I don't see it as a fairness issue and never have. I need 3 more IBS Agg patches to make 100. I doubt I will live long enough to luck into them
Pete
Pete. As far as IBS SR score shooting growing, go to the IBS website under the updated president's report on the winter meeting last Friday and Saturday in Harrisburg and you'll see the charts, for SR score and group, 600 and 1000 yard shooters also. That 180 figure for the number of score shooters is deceiving. That number is the actual number of shooter's who earned points last year. There were 63 shooters last year who went to matches and never earned one single point, hence the change ONCE AGAIN to a different SSOY point system for 2018. As far as new guys from SC and NC goes, most of those guys were shooting just before or just after I started in 2013.
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jackie schmidt
New member
What are the cost of the UBR Targets?
M
Melvin Scott
Guest
A great game
I have shot 6br 6ppc and a 30 major at this game, one is not at an advantage over the other. Having finally cleared up confusion about the targets i think the biggest thing that needs to be brought to attention about ubr is the fact that it is an amazing game for new shooters and pros alike. I showed up at my first match with a 8 twist 6br savage and placed in the 200 yd modified. Being able to show up with a factory or modified rifle you already own (regardless of caliber) and not be lumped into competing against full custom high dollar rifles is a great way to get started in benchrest. Not everyone can drop big bucks to give this a try. Very encouraging format for new shooters which in the grand scheme is what i think is most important about any discipline... keeping it alive.
I have shot 6br 6ppc and a 30 major at this game, one is not at an advantage over the other. Having finally cleared up confusion about the targets i think the biggest thing that needs to be brought to attention about ubr is the fact that it is an amazing game for new shooters and pros alike. I showed up at my first match with a 8 twist 6br savage and placed in the 200 yd modified. Being able to show up with a factory or modified rifle you already own (regardless of caliber) and not be lumped into competing against full custom high dollar rifles is a great way to get started in benchrest. Not everyone can drop big bucks to give this a try. Very encouraging format for new shooters which in the grand scheme is what i think is most important about any discipline... keeping it alive.
Since Danny got a vendor for the printing I'm not sure what the price is currently. When I send out packages to interested parties I average both 100 & 200 and get .25 each. That may change this year, but probably not by much. Maybe Danny will see this and comment.
Rick
Jeff Breeden
New member
I've been shooting the UBR matches since 2012, I have shot 223 rem, 308 win, 6br norma, 6 creedmoor, 260 rem, Factory and modified class, I hold a record in factory with the 6br. I have been shooting guns all my life, But started competition shooting in 2012, And have learned so much from the veteran shooters, everyone is very helpful, and willing to help beginners get started. Rick Fox is the match director for the matches I shoot here in Tennessee, And he does an outstanding job every time, And is one Hell of a Competitor, That 22 Beggs is a lazer. lol. So please don't knock it till you try it. Its Great Competition, And everyone has a chance,,,, And I could do a lot better if I stopped drinking a gallon of high octane Coffee before the match starts. And learned to read the wind better. lol