To be considered a compatative rifle

M

Markhor

Guest
What consistent group size should a 6PPC & 30BR shoot at 100 yards to be considered compatative?
Just trying to see what everyone's idea of a compatative rifle is these days.

Ed
 
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Depends on the day. Some days a quarter inch rifle can win.

But talk to observant shooters like Jackie Schmidt or Jim Borden and they'll tell you that many (most?) of the rifles being used CAN'T win consistently because they don't shoot.

IMO a short range rifle should be capable of shooting .100's or a tenth inch group to be a consistent winner. It sucks to get a great condition on the line and your rifle won't print dots. Obviously if the conditions dictate that winning groups will be 1/2" or larger on a given day the poorly tuned rifles will get right in there with the good ones although their groups will look different.

For myself I'll take a group that looks like a caterpillar over a group that looks like a duck any windy day.

al
 
2 tenths consistently or on a fairly regular basis with the occasional itty bitty group will get you by for the combination aggs. You'll know when you have one.
 
OK, I think Wilbur an I are talking about two different things :)

Correct me if I'm wrong Wilbur......

I think the OP is asking "what could the gun do, say in a tunnel or while tuning..... And I think Wilbur that you're talking actual groups fired in competition.


There is a huge difference between the two.

For instance, I've only been able to compete in 600yd although I've shot with several competition 100yd shooters informally, but I live on a range. I can generally show up with perfectly tuned equipment. DUE TO THIS I've been able to garner some local wood even shooting against better shooters who've come in from out of town. Good equipment, TUNED equipment and a GOOD barrel can make even a neophyte look good when conditions allow it :) but even then my competition groups are noticeably larger than my practice/homerange groups. I'm not a good shooter out in the real world. There's a ton to learn other than just making the gun shoot and I'm slowly but surely making headway.

In simple terms, with tuned equipment I can see when I suck, a tenth inch rifle is just a wonderful thing.....


Now if Wilbur is saying your gun needs to be CAPABLE of 2 tenths..... then if nothing else I'll be really happy with my Borden-built rifles that can lay down round dots!


al
 
Al & Wilber thanks for the info. Being a new shooter its good to know when your rifle & load combo are ready to compete.
Ability to shoot well and read the wind hopefully comes with practice and actually competition. I now need to take the plung and start competing.

Ed
 
Markhor said:
What consistent group size should a 6PPC & 30BR shoot at 100 yards to be considered compatative?
Just trying to see what everyone's idea of a compatative rifle is these days.

Ed
Click to expand...

Do yourself a favor - 'tune' in some wind, looking for 'central thickening' (a shotgun term, meaning a 'little bitty' central hole) - like in the mid 'ones'. Forget the wind flags, just go with the load which 'cuts it' - your 'fliers' will show the 20% [badly] 'missed conditions', while the 'tune' (by chance,, usually about 80% of the shots) will produce a sub 0.2" center - then, with windicators, and good judgment/execution, that should allow you to win/place/show, or, at least scare those ahead of you. If you're shootin' three-shot groups, and consistently seeing three-leaf clovers, you're not there yet. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
 
R.G. Robinett said:
Do yourself a favor - 'tune' in some wind, looking for 'central thickening' (a shotgun term, meaning a 'little bitty' central hole) - like in the mid 'ones'. Forget the wind flags, just go with the load which 'cuts it' - your 'fliers' will show the 20% [badly] 'missed conditions', while the 'tune' (by chance,, usually about 80% of the shots) will produce a sub 0.2" center - then, with windicators, and good judgment/execution, that should allow you to win/place/show, or, at least scare those ahead of you. If you're shootin' three-shot groups, and consistently seeing three-leaf clovers, you're not there yet. Keep 'em ON the X! RG
Click to expand...

EEK, I guess I have a LONG way to go.......................... 3 LEAF clovers all day long.

Thanks Randy, you just saved me thousands of dollars. No need to make that trip from Canada to Phoenix in October.............
 
Both ways!

When the wind dies (truly dies), if you don't shoot a "good'un" you're beat. By the same token, you have to be in position to win when that happens and 2 tenths will hold you there.

I'll offer an example of a competitive rifle to include the daily conditions. Sit there and wait for the wind to drop to whatever the minimum seems to be for that particular situation and shoot five record shots. If you don't pick up a trophy now and again your rifle is not competitive. It's that simple.

Adding more unsolicited advice...if you go through a few barrels and are unsuccessful then the rifle should no longer be "your" rifle. Thankfully, there are enough folks out there that believe in tuners and weighing powder to keep the resale value acceptable.
 
Great advise RG and Wilber. I have avoided shooting in the wind, will give it a try. My two 6PPC's are shooting in the 2's & an occasional 3. The 30Br (new rifle) is shooting in the 1's. These are 3 shot groups so they really don't tell the true story. I will begin shooting five shot groups in both conditions and see what happens. The 6PPC's were bought used, so I have no idea of the true round count on the barrels, maybe a new barrel would turn them around.

Ed
 
Markhor said:
Great advise RG and Wilber. I have avoided shooting in the wind, will give it a try. My two 6PPC's are shooting in the 2's & an occasional 3. The 30Br (new rifle) is shooting in the 1's. These are 3 shot groups so they really don't tell the true story. I will begin shooting five shot groups in both conditions and see what happens. The 6PPC's were bought used, so I have no idea of the true round count on the barrels, maybe a new barrel would turn them around.

Ed
Click to expand...

Was reading some more of Tony Boyer's book last night and he said that shooting in the wind is the way to learn what your gun is capable of and how it performs. On page 261 of his book Tony starts a paragraph off with "Avoid practicing or testing in the calm".
 
Possibly the worst thing that can happen to a benchrest shooter is a "promising" rifle. The only thing I can think of that is worse is a rifle that delivers that promise once a weekend.
 
Well, Wilbur, maybe one other thing. I have seen several new shooters score a PHENOMINOL barrel right off the bat, shoot quite well, burn that barrel up, and then be relagated to the middle, or even back of the pack. Frustration sets in, and they quit.

Great Rifles make good shooters.......jackie
 
A friend who had been shooting rimfire with good results, got his first CF benchrest rifle, and did quite well with it. As he was finishing his first barrel, he started seeing some group enlargement, and ordered another barrel. The new barrel seemed to be of less quality than the first one, so he ordered another, which suffered from the same problems. Finally, thinking that something must have changed about the rifle itself, he ordered another. While he was waiting for that rifle, we happened to be at the range shooting side by side. I noticed that he seemed to have picked up some bad habits, that he would have been better able to notice if he was shooting rimfire, but which were probably masked by the recoil and noise of the CF. I casually mentioned what I was seeing, and he took an interest, so we spent some time going over his entire CF routine. By the time that we were finished (several weeks and discussions later), we had discovered about a dozen things that had gotten slightly out of whack, which all together were worth probably at least .075 in average group size. Because of the large and diverse nature of the list, we agreed that writing it down for future reference was the thing to do. So, just before the new rifle arrived, we had him shooting like he started out....problems solved. After that he was able to do a pretty good job of diagnosing problems that would come up, and from time to time he calls and lets me in on a new discovery. I guess that the real point of this is that many times it is hard for someone to diagnose their own shooting problems. Often I wish that I had that kind of help myself.
 
To anyone wanting to know what it takes and wanting to try short range Bench Rest, there is gold in this thread.

Good Job Guys....and Boyd thank you yet again for considering stuff from your unique perspective......there's just a TON of stuff goes into making a round dot!


al
 
adamsgt said:
Was reading some more of Tony Boyer's book last night and he said that shooting in the wind is the way to learn what your gun is capable of and how it performs. On page 261 of his book Tony starts a paragraph off with "Avoid practicing or testing in the calm".
Click to expand...

Now here's a place where I have to play Devil's Advocate with Tony.....

For new guys, and moreso for guys like the OP, Markhor, the real question is "everything!"

"is the gun shooting?"
"am I shooting?"
"CAN I shoot?"
"are my bags too hard?"
"are my bags too soft"
"is my front too hard?"
"is my rear too hard?"
"should I have heavy sand?"
"should I go up?"
"should I go down?"

"SHOULD I? COULD I? WOULD I???"

It's WICKED getting off the ground so that you can even know what Tony's talking about..... YES, I agree with what Tony's saying there but it doesn't mean a thing until you KNOW #1, what's acceptable and #2 that you are capable. Read again what Boyd wrote.


(My apologies Markhor if this doesn't represent you or your question.... but this doesn't change my point.)

al
 
The Benchrest Gods ALWAYS make your first bbl a good shooter. I've never forgot that.........................:cool:

Later
Dave
 
alinwa said:
To anyone wanting to know what it takes and wanting to try short range Bench Rest, there is gold in this thread.

Good Job Guys....and Boyd thank you yet again for considering stuff from your unique perspective......there's just a TON of stuff goes into making a round dot!


al
Click to expand...



Yes Sir...! BIG ol'e Ditto..! Gold in this here thread..!

cale
 
I agree with alinwa and didn't realize how true what he is saying is until I finished my second full season of shooting...and now that I have a barrel that it finally telling me the truth! It took me the better part of two seasons to be able to be confident enough to know that my barrel wasn't up to snuff. It would deliver on occasion, but in the long-haul it fell short.
Technique can't be emphasized enough to be able to then evaluate the rest of the picture...in essence "Everything" is important to be competitive.

read and re-read the thread as you practice and get humbled each time you go to the range. It will read differently each time you come back to it.
Same goes for Tony's and Mike's books.
Mike
 
I suppose I'm the outlier here (as always) by strongly disagreeing that "everything" is important. If you have the right rifle, nothing else is important aside from keeping your shoes shined so you'll look good in the picture. There's just too much evidence to think otherwise. It's right there before you and has always been. The forest and the trees come to mind....

The difficult part is getting your hands on the right rifle. I don't have any advice for that other than paying the guy that has one what he wants for it.
 
"The Right Rifle"

Wilbur said:
I suppose I'm the outlier here (as always) by strongly disagreeing that "everything" is important. If you have the right rifle, nothing else is important aside from keeping your shoes shined so you'll look good in the picture. There's just too much evidence to think otherwise. It's right there before you and has always been. The forest and the trees come to mind....

The difficult part is getting your hands on the right rifle. I don't have any advice for that other than paying the guy that has one what he wants for it.
Click to expand...

The #1 "Right Rifle" of all time has to be Tony Boyers Hart actioned H/V. Does anyone know how many HOF points Tony has won with it?
 
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