The worth while changes to IR 50/50 / attendance increase
- Thread starter GordonE
- Start date
Tony & Travis Beste volunteered to serve on the committee. Can't recall the other 2 but you're name was mentioned as someone who could add a gunsmith's perspective to things.
As far as increasing attendance it was mentioned several times in the other thread. Promotion. If we want more shooters & they're not coming from our own clubs then we need to get the word out further, ourselves. Let other F&G & gun clubs know nearby what we're doing. Either go to their meeting or send them some correspondence in some manner.
The solution to the problem is looking at us in the mirror, I hope.
Keith
As far as increasing attendance it was mentioned several times in the other thread. Promotion. If we want more shooters & they're not coming from our own clubs then we need to get the word out further, ourselves. Let other F&G & gun clubs know nearby what we're doing. Either go to their meeting or send them some correspondence in some manner.
The solution to the problem is looking at us in the mirror, I hope.
Keith
Turboman
Senoir Member
Points are counted first x"s are the tiebreaker
Thought this was to have happed.
Go to rule book first line:
Original - IR 50/50 recognizes three matches – 3-Gun, Unlimited and Sporter.
New - IR 50/50 recognizes three match types – 3-Card, Unlimited and Sporter.
Next
Original - A regular 3-Gun match contests three classes: Sporter Class, 10.5 Lb. Class, and 13.5 Lb. Class. A competitor can compete only one time in each class.
New - A regular 3-card match: One Sporter card, two HEAVY gun cards.
Next
Original - A regular Unlimited match contests three targets- UL1, UL2 and UL3.
New - A Heavy Gun match: HV1, HV2, HV3.
"This means No more UL or 10.5 or 13.5, just a HEAVY GUN. Who cares how heavy a heavy gun is."
And so on down the line through the rule book. That is change!!
Go to rule book first line:
Original - IR 50/50 recognizes three matches – 3-Gun, Unlimited and Sporter.
New - IR 50/50 recognizes three match types – 3-Card, Unlimited and Sporter.
Next
Original - A regular 3-Gun match contests three classes: Sporter Class, 10.5 Lb. Class, and 13.5 Lb. Class. A competitor can compete only one time in each class.
New - A regular 3-card match: One Sporter card, two HEAVY gun cards.
Next
Original - A regular Unlimited match contests three targets- UL1, UL2 and UL3.
New - A Heavy Gun match: HV1, HV2, HV3.
"This means No more UL or 10.5 or 13.5, just a HEAVY GUN. Who cares how heavy a heavy gun is."
And so on down the line through the rule book. That is change!!
tonykharper
Well-known member
deleted
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tonykharper
Well-known member
Gordon,
I don't think this forum is the best way to develop our input to Mr. Wills, but if you would like to lay out yours ideas here rather than send it privately I will make sure it gets presented to the group either way.
With your start of doing away with the 10.5, 13.5, and Unlimited classes, and replacing them with a Heavy class. This idea would certainly simplify things.
To continue that thought would it mean the Heavy class rifles can use unlimited rests, or does it have to use two piece rest with sand bags?. Or does it depend on if one is shooting Three gun, or Heavy classes? It can be either way, but we need to decide.
TKH
Jerry H
Different Drummer
The target fix is not 275, but simply change the scoring rings to be more difficult for a 250. In other words the dot becomes a 10 and the 10 ring is a 9. That will do away with the perceived scoring issue. Reduce the number of classes and many of the petty rules. Ie. 2 classes, a defined class of the common benchrest rifle with simple well defined rules and a truly unlimited class where anything else goes. Anything resembling a factory class is too hard to inspect/enforce to prevent cheating. Keep it as simple as possible.
tonykharper
Well-known member
You are correct Mr. Wills will do all the deciding. We agree on the rule book.
My last post to you had nothing to do with scoring. I think we have beat that horse to death.
I was asking what your thoughts were on how to handle the rest requirements for your recommended heavy class. If you have none, fine.
We can go from here.
TKH
tonykharper
Well-known member
I have a few, and many more have been sent to me. I still haven't been able to gel them into a comprehensive package as new one are still coming in.
My primary concern is making the rules simpler, easier to administer, and not recommending anything that changes the flavor, or tradition of the game.
I think we need to try some experiments designed to appeal to a larger audience. If they work, we can build upon them. If they don't we can drop them. But these experiments must be done without killing the game as it is today.
I would like to see a mission statement that explains what the organization is about, and what it hopes to accomplish. I think it is needed to keep us on track and in agreement.
I have learned a lot from this discussion. But I'm sure there is much more to learn.
IR 50/50 wasn't built in a day, and it will not be changed in one either.
Remember this is only a recommendation. Mr. Wills will decide if it is worth doing.
TKH
I've retired from the sport, but I still have some interest in it. It seems to me that what many shooters want is to make IR50/50 easier. I know, I know, it's hard to shoot sporters, it's harder to shoot off a 2 piece rest, it's harder to shoot only during the day (when the winds actually blow), it's harder to shoot 50 meters, it's upsetting when a one bad shot actually means you won't win the target etc etc.
Since it seems that shooters want it nice and easy I propose the following changes:
Use the old IBS target with its .5" ten ring.
Shoot at 25 yards only.
Eliminate that hard sporter class altogether
Allow one-piece rests for all events
No weight classes
But keep best edge scoring, we want it to be different than ARA.
With these changes, everyone with a half-way decent rifle and shooting cheap ammo can shoot a 250. Everyone can feel like a winner and all shooters can brag about their great scores to the wifey and their buddies. Also, any monkey with a lathe could build a 250 shooting gun. Man, you'll get lots of new shooters.
Since it seems that shooters want it nice and easy I propose the following changes:
Use the old IBS target with its .5" ten ring.
Shoot at 25 yards only.
Eliminate that hard sporter class altogether
Allow one-piece rests for all events
No weight classes
But keep best edge scoring, we want it to be different than ARA.
With these changes, everyone with a half-way decent rifle and shooting cheap ammo can shoot a 250. Everyone can feel like a winner and all shooters can brag about their great scores to the wifey and their buddies. Also, any monkey with a lathe could build a 250 shooting gun. Man, you'll get lots of new shooters.
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D
Dave Shattuck
Guest
Anything is worth trying - again. And, good luck with your endeavor.
Over the years most every suggestion here, along with several others, have been tried, or were at least considered before being dismissed.
Back when IR started out it was only a 3-Gun event. To help draw in more shooters we would try things like:
Adding a Factory Class,
Shooting at not only 50Y/M, but also at 100Y.
Having a target set up similar to High Power For-Score targets,
Printing the targets in Red Ink.
Holding "Barn Yard" shoots where you could bring whatever you had, and we supplied the ammo.
But even back in the day nothing seemed to affect how many shooters would come. Not even when IR added the Unlimited Class and allowed for the use of One-Piece rests while shooting UL. It didn't draw in any more shooters than were already there. And the ones that did come out to give it a try often times would only be around for maybe a season or two, then fall by the wayside.
If you are looking for a tougher target you should check out the 25Y WRABF (World Rimfire and Airgun Benchrest Federation) target (their 50Y target is almost identical to the IR target, so that wouldn't help). The 25Y target has a much tougher "X" than the IR target as to score an "X" it's not simply a matter of just "touching" the outer edge of the line, but instead you have to totally obliterate the entire 2mm ring, and if any ink is left visible it becomes just another 10 (that ring also acts as the 10-Ring), and it's way smaller than the IR 10-Ring. My feeling is, overall you won't gain much if anything by changing the target as once everybody else is shooting the same target it all becomes the same thing - only different.
As for how to draw in more shooters: there is no answer to that question. 20 years ago things were more attractive as there were fewer, if any, "custom" actions showing up at matches, meaning any shooter could go out and buy a new or used gun, then modify it to their liking, and do so for less than 2 Grand. Plus, when it comes to the ammo: even though back then it was every bit as good, if not better than todays supply, ammo was so much cheaper as you could buy a case of the best at ±$750.00. Back then you could order 1 or 2 boxes of several different Lots and know you had time enough to have it shipped to you, do your testing, then order as much as you wanted as the suppliers would hold Case Lots of ammo for you while you were testing. There used to be more ammo available too so even though there were more shooters, the supplies would last for a few weeks at least. But, not today? You have to order blind and just hope your gun likes what you're about to feed it. How's that working for you?
And, how good were those guns back 20 years ago? As an example: at the 1999 Nationals my bench was situated between Bob Holbruner and Glenn Angles for the weekend. In the 10.5# and 13.5# Classes Bob was shooting an Anschutz 2007 and Glenn was shooting a Sako P94 that was set up for the Heavy Classes. Over the course of the weekend I watched as Bob set I think it was 7 World Records, and the great part was, if he hadn't Glenn would have as they were that close all the way through. Every target came down to the final shot. It was mind boggling. But in todays sport no matter what the Class you need to spend at least $3,500 per gun (plus scope) to be competitive, and then there’s the question of find the right ammo (that is if you can).
Don't get me wrong. I would love to see the numbers grow, but I just don't know what will make that happen.
Good luck with your quest. It's always been too bad that the numbers have declined as benchrest is so enjoyable and relaxing with what I've always considered to be the greatest group of competitors anywhere.
Just my opinion, but what do I know?
Dave Shattuck
Over the years most every suggestion here, along with several others, have been tried, or were at least considered before being dismissed.
Back when IR started out it was only a 3-Gun event. To help draw in more shooters we would try things like:
Adding a Factory Class,
Shooting at not only 50Y/M, but also at 100Y.
Having a target set up similar to High Power For-Score targets,
Printing the targets in Red Ink.
Holding "Barn Yard" shoots where you could bring whatever you had, and we supplied the ammo.
But even back in the day nothing seemed to affect how many shooters would come. Not even when IR added the Unlimited Class and allowed for the use of One-Piece rests while shooting UL. It didn't draw in any more shooters than were already there. And the ones that did come out to give it a try often times would only be around for maybe a season or two, then fall by the wayside.
If you are looking for a tougher target you should check out the 25Y WRABF (World Rimfire and Airgun Benchrest Federation) target (their 50Y target is almost identical to the IR target, so that wouldn't help). The 25Y target has a much tougher "X" than the IR target as to score an "X" it's not simply a matter of just "touching" the outer edge of the line, but instead you have to totally obliterate the entire 2mm ring, and if any ink is left visible it becomes just another 10 (that ring also acts as the 10-Ring), and it's way smaller than the IR 10-Ring. My feeling is, overall you won't gain much if anything by changing the target as once everybody else is shooting the same target it all becomes the same thing - only different.
As for how to draw in more shooters: there is no answer to that question. 20 years ago things were more attractive as there were fewer, if any, "custom" actions showing up at matches, meaning any shooter could go out and buy a new or used gun, then modify it to their liking, and do so for less than 2 Grand. Plus, when it comes to the ammo: even though back then it was every bit as good, if not better than todays supply, ammo was so much cheaper as you could buy a case of the best at ±$750.00. Back then you could order 1 or 2 boxes of several different Lots and know you had time enough to have it shipped to you, do your testing, then order as much as you wanted as the suppliers would hold Case Lots of ammo for you while you were testing. There used to be more ammo available too so even though there were more shooters, the supplies would last for a few weeks at least. But, not today? You have to order blind and just hope your gun likes what you're about to feed it. How's that working for you?
And, how good were those guns back 20 years ago? As an example: at the 1999 Nationals my bench was situated between Bob Holbruner and Glenn Angles for the weekend. In the 10.5# and 13.5# Classes Bob was shooting an Anschutz 2007 and Glenn was shooting a Sako P94 that was set up for the Heavy Classes. Over the course of the weekend I watched as Bob set I think it was 7 World Records, and the great part was, if he hadn't Glenn would have as they were that close all the way through. Every target came down to the final shot. It was mind boggling. But in todays sport no matter what the Class you need to spend at least $3,500 per gun (plus scope) to be competitive, and then there’s the question of find the right ammo (that is if you can).
Don't get me wrong. I would love to see the numbers grow, but I just don't know what will make that happen.
Good luck with your quest. It's always been too bad that the numbers have declined as benchrest is so enjoyable and relaxing with what I've always considered to be the greatest group of competitors anywhere.
Just my opinion, but what do I know?
Dave Shattuck
tonykharper
Well-known member
Dave,
Thank you for your words of wisdom. As you said anything is worth a try, or even a re try.
The important thing is to keep on doing something, rather than sitting back, and watching it be lost without expending any effort.
TKH
I like Gordon's idea about getting rid of weight restrictions on the heavy guns. I'd also be in favor of increasing the weight on the sporter to either 8 or 8.5 lbs. The 3 things I'd leave is the 2 3/4 wide forearm, convex on the bottom of the stock & 6.5x scope. I don't feel like these changes would have any effect on existing records.
I think the only way 275 scoring could be used is to create a whole new class for IR50. One where match directors could schedule it, or not. It would live or die. The shooters will decide what they want to attend. Scoring this way would have no impact on existing records & would create an opportunity the create some new.
Me, I'm a sporter match/3gun shooter as we all are in the NE. I'm not sure it would fly up here.
Keith
I think the only way 275 scoring could be used is to create a whole new class for IR50. One where match directors could schedule it, or not. It would live or die. The shooters will decide what they want to attend. Scoring this way would have no impact on existing records & would create an opportunity the create some new.
Me, I'm a sporter match/3gun shooter as we all are in the NE. I'm not sure it would fly up here.
Keith
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W
wicklowman
Guest
shooting and benchrest.
One of the things that holds back 22 bench here in the UK is range time,also the the chase by some that can afford
For custom build rifles.
Most shooting facilities here are indoor ranges and as such cater for 25yd shooting.
Competitions for benchrest are mostly limited to Postal Comps of which thankfully are popular and keep most of us competing.
Our choises are ,The Midland postal league,The UKBR22 Postal leagues,the NSRA postal leagues,and the Yorkshire Poatal league.
This is what keeps 22 benchrest alive in the UK.
50yd comps are a rarity ,because of the lack of venues.
The WRABF being the governing body for this part of the world,dropped 25 yd shooting from its competitions,( The Europeans Championships,The World Cup,and the once every 4 years World Championships.
My own view is that doing away with this part of 22 benchrest was a mistake,just because it has cut the number of possible competitors.Yes I know the sport has grown under the WRABF mantle but my belief is it would have grown even more had they kept to 25yd disiplines and done away with the 50yd International Sporter.
50 yd IS is just a guessing game (JustMy Opinion) trying to get Ultimate accuracy when most folk can't se what they are shooting at just seems daft to me.
Progress might just be down to a shorter distance and a higher power scope to get more people into sporter Class.
I,m saying sporter class because it seems to get a mention on a goodly number of posts.John F.
One of the things that holds back 22 bench here in the UK is range time,also the the chase by some that can afford
For custom build rifles.
Most shooting facilities here are indoor ranges and as such cater for 25yd shooting.
Competitions for benchrest are mostly limited to Postal Comps of which thankfully are popular and keep most of us competing.
Our choises are ,The Midland postal league,The UKBR22 Postal leagues,the NSRA postal leagues,and the Yorkshire Poatal league.
This is what keeps 22 benchrest alive in the UK.
50yd comps are a rarity ,because of the lack of venues.
The WRABF being the governing body for this part of the world,dropped 25 yd shooting from its competitions,( The Europeans Championships,The World Cup,and the once every 4 years World Championships.
My own view is that doing away with this part of 22 benchrest was a mistake,just because it has cut the number of possible competitors.Yes I know the sport has grown under the WRABF mantle but my belief is it would have grown even more had they kept to 25yd disiplines and done away with the 50yd International Sporter.
50 yd IS is just a guessing game (JustMy Opinion) trying to get Ultimate accuracy when most folk can't se what they are shooting at just seems daft to me.
Progress might just be down to a shorter distance and a higher power scope to get more people into sporter Class.
I,m saying sporter class because it seems to get a mention on a goodly number of posts.John F.