The Woodchuck Hunter

[VarmintGuy]

Brian Roberts & Larry Elliott: Speaking of "transplanting Varmints" a few years back a father and son who were partners in a large ranch in northern Wyoming sued the Wyoming Fish and Game Department (and won!).
It seems the basis for the lawsuit was the father and son's ranch all of a sudden became "inhabited" by Grizzly Bears!
And the Grizzly Bears were feasting on the ranches cattle!
Having been in the area for many generations and never had Grizzly problems before they began "asking around".
It turns out that their ranch was used "clandestinely" as a baiting area FOR Grizzlies by the Wyoming Wardens.
And what were the Wardens using as bait, but Grizzly in heat pheramones!
They would simply drench an area on the private property (NOT forest service leased lands but private property!) with the Grizzly in heat scents and this would lure Grizzled Bears from as far away as 65 miles!
This fact was ascertained by records of the tracking of radio collared Grizzly Bears.
Anyway the two ranch owners in question could not ascertain by themselves what was going on but via an "anonymous whistle blower" the facts of what was being done on their property without their permission was learned.
Attorneys were hired and discovery sought.
The civil suit for damages was settled in the ranchers favor and in full.
And now the Wyoming Wardens can not "lure" the Bears or transplant them onto private property without the owners permission - and WHO would want a horny and hungry Grizzly Bear on their cattle ranch?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[Larry Elliott]

Varmint Guy this is the kind of thing that happens and has happened and fortunately in this instance worked out for the ranchers. A government coyote hunter shot a wolf in South Dakota about ten years ago, and was told by his bosses that it was just a big coyote. I've never seen a picture of this critter, but a rancher in SE Montana said that a picture of it was taken alongside a dead coyote. It was twice the size of the coyote and dark colored, looking suspiciously like a, uh, wolf.

The government predator hunter had been shooting coyotes for 20 or more years and knew what a coyote looked like, and what a wolf was too.

And people in DC and state capitals wonder why they're not trusted. If they pulled their heads out they'd likely leave their ears where the sun don't shine.

 

[vicvanb]

Brian Roberts & Larry Elliott: Speaking of "transplanting Varmints" a few years back a father and son who were partners in a large ranch in northern Wyoming sued the Wyoming Fish and Game Department (and won!).
It seems the basis for the lawsuit was the father and son's ranch all of a sudden became "inhabited" by Grizzly Bears!
And the Grizzly Bears were feasting on the ranches cattle!
Having been in the area for many generations and never had Grizzly problems before they began "asking around".
It turns out that their ranch was used "clandestinely" as a baiting area FOR Grizzlies by the Wyoming Wardens.
And what were the Wardens using as bait, but Grizzly in heat pheramones!
They would simply drench an area on the private property (NOT forest service leased lands but private property!) with the Grizzly in heat scents and this would lure Grizzled Bears from as far away as 65 miles!
This fact was ascertained by records of the tracking of radio collared Grizzly Bears.
Anyway the two ranch owners in question could not ascertain by themselves what was going on but via an "anonymous whistle blower" the facts of what was being done on their property without their permission was learned.
Attorneys were hired and discovery sought.
The civil suit for damages was settled in the ranchers favor and in full.
And now the Wyoming Wardens can not "lure" the Bears or transplant them onto private property without the owners permission - and WHO would want a horny and hungry Grizzly Bear on their cattle ranch?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy

This sounds like one of those tall tales that gets passed around and around and ends up with about 1% truth. But I could be wrong. For me to believe it you need to provide details that can be checked--like references to the lawsuit. I Googled "wyoming fish and game grizzly bear lawsuit" and found lots of cases but not the one in question. Help me find it.

 

[brian roberts]

If I remember correctly, the............

Coyote I spoke of, had a Pennsylvania tag on its ear. When West Virginia DNR officers were questioned about this(it was shot in WVA.), they maintained it didn't happen. However, when they were shown the ear w/tag, their attitude changed, "Can I have that?" "Uh, no,...you can't."(Like an old Smothers Bros. routine.)

 

[Bnhpr]

Is the 40X STS a factory item, or was it bumped?

As one who started his varmint shooting career years ago on Western Mass. woodchucks, I've enjoyed this post.

We never spent a whole day in one field then, however, nowadays I can on those 3-500 round prairie rat excursions.

Good shooting.

Your correct, they are 30x. I checked with my neighbor Mike, who has 2 of them.

 

[Squeal]

Woodchuck books.

Back to the books.........I found several brand new re-printed copies still in the wrapper on E-bay. I already bought one for myself. Someone reprinted them in the early nineties. If anyone wants to get one I recommend you hurry! It was from E-bay seller; Sara's gunbooks. I cant wait to get mine and read it. Thanks for the recommendation.

 

[VarmintGuy]

VicVanb: Well this incident could be an "urban legend" but I read of it in two publications - one a newspaper and one an outdoor publication (magazine).
I did not save either.
I will provide for you the phone number of an "information specialist" that works for the Wyoming Game and Fish Department - who may assist you in trying to solve this "urban legend"?

Al Langston, Information Specialist
1-307-777-4621, al.langston@wgf.state.wy.us

Vicvanb, do you really think the Wyoming Fish and Game folks would maintain a synopsis of the lawsuits they have lost and had to make payouts on, in an easily accessible public format?
I worked for 29 years at a governmental law enforcement agency and an easily accessible list of "lost lawsuits" was the last thing they would maintain on a website!

Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[Larry Elliott]

Varmint Guy, I worked for nearly 34 years for a government regulatory agency and when they screwed something up it was like it never happened. Nobody wants to be reminded of their screwups, but governmental agencies make the rest of us look like weasely little pikers. Only because compared to them we are....

 

[VarmintGuy]

Not to be contrary here but I live right exactly in between two of Mr. Turners Montana Buffalo ranches.
He is thought of pretty highly in these parts of SW Montana - not the same can be said for the former Mrs. Turner though.
Mr. Turners ranch on the Red Rock River near me is maintained for Buffalo and wildlife flourishes there!
Mr. & Mrs. Turner DONATED a stunningly BEAUTIFUL and HUGE two story brick ranch house with 4 huge white columns to the University of Montana Western. And they PAID for the moving of that HUGE building to the UMW campus! It took TWO huge moving trucks two full days to move that mansion 19 miles to the UMW campus!
The Turners had to pay to have a road built from the home site to the I-15 freeway!
Additional costs were incurred by the Turners when once that truck was able to weave its way into the UMW campus and up to the NEW foundation when it was discovered that the mansion was 180 degrees out of whack with the new foundation - in other words the truck now had to back out of the campus (weave its way backwards) and turn around and get the mansion facing the right way and weave its way BACK to the foundation.
Again the additional moving costs were paid BY Mr. & Mrs Turner!
This is NOT an "urban legend" I watched the move myself.
I know personally the former "ditch rider" employed by the largest county in Montana - his job was to "ride herd" on the ranchers who owned water rights to the Red Rock River!
My close friend caught and issued citations to EVERY SINGLE rancher that had water rights to the Red Rock River EXCEPT Mr. Ted Turner!
In fact he caught every single rancher that had water rights to the Red Rock River AT LEAST TWICE violating their water rights agreements (stealing MORE water than they were legally allowed!), again, EXCEPT Mr. Ted Turner!
Mr. Turner owns land along the Red Rock River many miles of land in fact.
I am personally aware that he went to the local Fish & Game folks and asked them how he could improve the habitat along the river.
The Montana Department of Fish, Wildlfe and Park Biologist suggested that he plant tall deciduos trees along the banks of the river to provide shade for the fish and to provide nesting places for Eagles and Ospreys.
At GREAT expense Mr. Turner planted many hundreds of trees along the banks of said river.
All was going fine until the Beaver population increased and began felling Mr. Turners planted trees.
The biologist forgot to mention that Beavers love the species of trees that he suggested Mr. Turner plant along his section of the river.
Mr. Turner then hired MORE local people to plant more trees and then to place Beaver proof "girdles" around ALL the tree bases!
Now in my opinion Mr. Turner is not of my political persuasion, nor my kind of guy, nor do I like the UN (to which Mr. Turner gave $1,000,000,000.00 - ONE BILLION DOLLARS!), nor do I care for his former wife, nor do I care for some of his actions in regards to his various ranches - but in the community I have lived for the past 11+ years he is looked upon as a generous person and a good neighbor!
And he is an accomplished fisherman - his picture with a huge Brown Trout was displayed at a local restaurant/tavern right along with my picture and those of dozens of other local flyfishing enthusiasts.
I do know that on 2 of his 3 ranches here in Montana (that I am aware of - he probably has MORE than 3 ranches here in Montana) he allows some Hunting and some tresspass rights.
I have heard from "people" in the know that Mr. Turner spends more time on his nearby Redrock River ranch than any of his many other ranches in America.
I am also aware of other generosities that Mr. Turner has made here in Beaverhead County.
And "someone" has also been VERY generous hereabouts in an anonymous way - since Mr. Turner bought the Redrock River ranch and began growing Buffalo there!
Coincidence or "urban legend" this - I think NOT!
In one day (recently!) I observed not only Buffalo on Mr. Turners ranch but Trophy Whitetailed Deer, Elk, Mule Deer, Moose, Osprey, Bald Eagles, Golden Eagles, Coyotes, Fox and many varities of smaller birds and waterfowl!
Mr. Turner is an excellent steward of his local lands and I know that to be fact!
I am not fully aware of the circumstances about his fencing or not wanting fencing at his other ranch or near them - I won't argue that point one way or the other.
But I do have a good friend that has been VERY successful on Hunting cow Elk for many years now, on one of Mr. Turners ranches.
I have heard that Mr. Turner is an advocate of the transplanted Canadian Wolves and virtually NO Montana Hunter is happy with what the now over-populated Wolves are doing to Montana - again I disagree with him on that.
BUT I know of no local person here in far SW Montana that wants to "lynch" Mr. Ted Turner!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[VarmintGuy]

LarryElliott: I agree with you on that point!
If I recall correctly from the published accounts of the Wyoming Grizzly incident it was a combined "experiment" with the Grizzly "pheramones".
Experiments in this regard - they wanted to see if the scent would "move" the Grizzlies and to see if the Grizzlies would stay in the new area they were "lured" AWAY from and TO!
The answer was yes to both those questions IIRC.
Yes getting a govermental agency to admit to past transgressions and liabilities is like pulling good teeth from a persons head - VERY TOUGH, to do!
I have been involved in dozens - probably over a hundred civil lawsuits and I am VERY aware of how governments will try to protect themselves.
Glad to be away from that - for sure.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[tim]

Talk to some cattle men around Livingston about their love for Mr Turner. He also changed up quite a bit since his initial agenda which also included him trying to buy up Depuy's and close it, find Bob Auger former property manager who brought back the spring creeks to something special before the flood. Mr. Turner finally came around after he did not get to change the world.... he remains an arogant putz.

 

[VarmintGuy]

Tim: Your apparent disdain for Mr. Turner is not very well defined.
I am not here to defend everything Mr. Turner has ever done - I thought I made that quite clear previously.
I know lots of people from around Livingston and NONE of them wish to "lynch" Mr. Turner either - at least that I am aware of!
Mr. Turner is the person who owns more private property in the United States than anyone else and I will repeat - from what I have seen of him and his ranches he is an excellent and intense steward of his lands.
Maybe your view from "over there" in New York City is swayed by some things I am not aware of - please enlighten regarding those things more definitively, if you can?
Heres another land care incident regarding Mr. Turner "caring for" his lands!
Two years ago Mr. Turner hired a "crew" of Montanans to "clean up" his lands along the Red Rock River here in SW Montana.
Mr. Turner had to go 90 miles away to find enough Montanans to complete the work he wanted done.
In specific he wanted the land along the Red Rock River which has intermittent groves of Cottonwood trees in the valley/river bottom cleaned up and made safe from fire dangers.
Mr. Turned contracted for the "workers" to clean up the fallen dried limbs and to "take down" most of the dead trees amongst the live ones in the Cottonwood groves.
Mr. Turner told the "workers" that when the limbs and trees were all cleaned up and piled up then he and his ranch foreman would evaluate the wind conditions and then relay to the workers when they could stand by and burn the woodpiles safely.
The work went along well and safely until the "workers" chose their own day to begin burning the wood piles.
Sure enough a wildfire ensued that burned over two miles of the valley and several Cottonwood groves!
Last I heard the "workers" (their business) were being sued by Mr. Turner and they were issued a citation for reckless burning by the Beaverhead County Fire Marshal.
NOW, maybe by the time this story gets back to NEW YORK Mr. Turner will by then be the "villian" in it - but you can take this to "the bank", he was NOT!
AGAIN I will not, nor have I ever defended ALL of Mr. Turners politics, policies or actions - I WILL repeat though - that I know for a fact he is a known and demonstrated good steward of his lands, hereabouts.
I have more examples if you want me to relay them?
Its up to you.
And Mr. Turner also has a generous and benevolent side to him - again I know that for a FACT.
And again, NO ONE I KNOW, hereabouts, wishes he be "lynched".
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

 

[tim]

A. I'm no where near NYC. B. you need to get out more. C. the man is a world class ass. D. just so you know, he's also against individual small arms ownership, wants the U.N. to control them, just like his pal George Soros. Don't pay attention to how he sucks up to the locals, read transcripts of some of his speeches in front of the black tie crowd.

 

[Savage99]

I hadn't hunted woodchucks since I left Ohio in 1970 ... until last year, in central New York. What a joy! I even managed two with a Stevens 44-1/2 rebarreled by GR Douglas in 6mm-30/30, with a Unertl 1-1/2 16X on top.

You guys that read the book - Did you notice the high-wall Col. Whelen is shooting prone? The one with the fiddle-head carved in the stock? I think it's a Floyd Butler. Anybody know for sure?

Harold

I see the picture of Col. Whelan in "The Chuck Hunter" pg 90. I have a high wall by Butler with a fiddle head carved into the stock but its on the left side behind the pistol grip and ahead of the cheek piece. Its an internal fiddle head not that much like the one it the picture.

I honor Floyd Butler as one of the finest men. I hope he made that rifle for Whelan.

This is the Butler high wall that he made.

 

[Harold M]

Thanks for attaching the picture.

I had heard that the fiddle-head motif Butler used related to his "day job" as a music teacher. Don't know for sure.

Chucks were out yesterday, but oh, that wind!

Harold

 

[tim]

I see the picture of Col. Whelan in "The Chuck Hunter" pg 90. I have a high wall by Butler with a fiddle head carved into the stock but its on the left side behind the pistol grip and ahead of the cheek piece. Its an internal fiddle head not that much like the one it the picture.

I honor Floyd Butler as one of the finest men. I hope he made that rifle for Whelan.

This is the Butler high wall that he made.

Ya can't just leave us hanging , how about some data on the nice highwall, even a pic of most of the rifle. How does it shoot?

 

[Savage99]

I have had that High Wall since May 1963 when I paid $110 for it at a gunshop. I know who owned it before me and he is a friend to this day.

Back then High Walls were in short supply and in great demand.

The rifle has a 1-16" twist barrel on it and I load the Sierra 50 spt. Its very accurate in the field. Sorry but I don't have the time for more pictures for at least a few more days.

 

[Savage99]

Here is another picture of a Floyd Butler rifle showing a fiddlehead similar to the one on my rifle.

 

[beemanbeme]

coyotes are adaptive enough and opportunistic enough that they don't have to be introduced anywhere. Case in point would be downtown LA.
I trapped Eastern coyotes way back in the late 1960's to help Memphis State with a study they were doing on them. Among other things, they learned that the coyotes that were coming into the east coast had not migrated acrost the country, west to east, but rather, they had made an end run around the top of the Mississippi River. They had moved up into MN and MI and then into upstate NY and then down into PA, OH and along the eastern seaboard; picking up genes from a few left over wolves and packs of feral dogs along the way. Basically they followed the vacuum created by the removal of the wolf.
And too, there's a lot of meaness layed off on coyotes that is really peoples free running poochies. Ole Rover that lays sleeping on the back porch all day may be another animal when the sun goes down.