I just finished reading "The Woodchuck Hunter" by Estey. It was written in 1936 and is a great window into the time when varmint rifle technology was in its infancy. There is a lot of 22 Hornet lore, loading data (unfortunately most with powders most of us never heard of) etc. One can read many stories of accurate rifles written in "a simpler time."
The Woodchuck Hunter
- Thread starter Harold M
- Start date
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Fireball Fred
Guest
sheesh
amazon has one listed for $93
last time i spent that much for a book was in college for textbooks!
Fred
amazon has one listed for $93
last time i spent that much for a book was in college for textbooks!
Fred
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Larry Elliott
Guest
I've read Landis's Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles, and Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles both of which make me happy that I'm living now and not then. Some neat old stuff, but it sounds like the best they had then would be maybe average today in rifles, scopes, and bullets. He sure didn't think much of Ackley's stuff either. Too noisy for his genteel tastes apparently.
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VarmintGuy
Guest
Harold M: I take my copy of "The Woodchuck Hunter" out every once in a while and re-read it.
I especially enjoy the all time classic Hunting photo of the author and Colonel Townsend Whelen on page 27 of the book. It shows the author and Townsend Whelen beside a beautiful old 4 door convertible car Hunting Woodchucks and they have 6 (six) huge Woodchucks displayed on the running board of that convertible!
My copy of that book has the dust cover on it and still intact - in the front top corner of the book is the MSRP of $1.50!
I have had many, many people try to buy my copy of this book but I would not even consider selling it.
I am glad you enjoyed reading the book that does so enjoyable mark the early days and more "simpler times" of Chuck Hunting from more than 7 decades ago!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
I especially enjoy the all time classic Hunting photo of the author and Colonel Townsend Whelen on page 27 of the book. It shows the author and Townsend Whelen beside a beautiful old 4 door convertible car Hunting Woodchucks and they have 6 (six) huge Woodchucks displayed on the running board of that convertible!
My copy of that book has the dust cover on it and still intact - in the front top corner of the book is the MSRP of $1.50!
I have had many, many people try to buy my copy of this book but I would not even consider selling it.
I am glad you enjoyed reading the book that does so enjoyable mark the early days and more "simpler times" of Chuck Hunting from more than 7 decades ago!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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VarmintGuy
Guest
Larry Elliott: My first edition copy of Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles was printed in 1951 and my first edition of Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles was printed in 1947 - you are exactly right about the advances in Rifles and equipment.
Especially those advances in scopes and bullets.
But I have some Winchester bolt action Rifles that were manufactured before 1947 and they are pretty danged accurate Rifles!
I would love to have Hunted Chucks back then - especially Rock Chucks.
I have known some older Hunters who did Hunt Rock Chucks back in the 40's and 50's and they relayed how a person could shoot 200 Rock Chucks a day back then, easily!
Back in the 60's and early 70's I had several 200 Rock Chuck days in central Idaho, and a couple of 300 Chuck days there as well!
But today a person is lucky to get 12 or 15 Rock Chucks in a long days Hunt in the same areas!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
Especially those advances in scopes and bullets.
But I have some Winchester bolt action Rifles that were manufactured before 1947 and they are pretty danged accurate Rifles!
I would love to have Hunted Chucks back then - especially Rock Chucks.
I have known some older Hunters who did Hunt Rock Chucks back in the 40's and 50's and they relayed how a person could shoot 200 Rock Chucks a day back then, easily!
Back in the 60's and early 70's I had several 200 Rock Chuck days in central Idaho, and a couple of 300 Chuck days there as well!
But today a person is lucky to get 12 or 15 Rock Chucks in a long days Hunt in the same areas!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
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vicvanb
Guest
The old days
I started hunting woodchucks in the early 1950s in the northeastern USA. At that time the country was full of chucks--if you shot them out of a den, a week or two later new ones moved in. Farmers welcomed chuck hunters. It was legal to shoot over the hood of a car. No one minded the sound of a 220 Swift going off. All that has changed--the good old days are long gone.
Yes, rifles, scopes, and bullets have changed and there's new gear like laser rangefinders that make things a lot easier now. But in the 1950s and 1960s the rifles and scopes of that time were very efficient at killing chucks out to 350-400 yards, about the maximum range for that country.
I acquired a Winchester Model 70 target rifle with a 15X Unertl 2 inch target scope that was deadly. Same for a Remington Hepburn single shot custom in 219 Improved Zipper with a 15X Lyman Super Targetspot. There was a local gunsmith who made some great chuck rifles on single shot actions and bolt actions--all accurate enough for 300-400 yard shooting.
When I think back on those days I really don't believe that we were seriously handicapped with our equipment then compared to now. My biggest problem then was bedding problems in walnut stocks--I had to sight in some of the rifles often as their bedding changed.
I started hunting woodchucks in the early 1950s in the northeastern USA. At that time the country was full of chucks--if you shot them out of a den, a week or two later new ones moved in. Farmers welcomed chuck hunters. It was legal to shoot over the hood of a car. No one minded the sound of a 220 Swift going off. All that has changed--the good old days are long gone.
Yes, rifles, scopes, and bullets have changed and there's new gear like laser rangefinders that make things a lot easier now. But in the 1950s and 1960s the rifles and scopes of that time were very efficient at killing chucks out to 350-400 yards, about the maximum range for that country.
I acquired a Winchester Model 70 target rifle with a 15X Unertl 2 inch target scope that was deadly. Same for a Remington Hepburn single shot custom in 219 Improved Zipper with a 15X Lyman Super Targetspot. There was a local gunsmith who made some great chuck rifles on single shot actions and bolt actions--all accurate enough for 300-400 yard shooting.
When I think back on those days I really don't believe that we were seriously handicapped with our equipment then compared to now. My biggest problem then was bedding problems in walnut stocks--I had to sight in some of the rifles often as their bedding changed.
I hadn't hunted woodchucks since I left Ohio in 1970 ... until last year, in central New York. What a joy! I even managed two with a Stevens 44-1/2 rebarreled by GR Douglas in 6mm-30/30, with a Unertl 1-1/2 16X on top.
You guys that read the book - Did you notice the high-wall Col. Whelen is shooting prone? The one with the fiddle-head carved in the stock? I think it's a Floyd Butler. Anybody know for sure?
Harold
You guys that read the book - Did you notice the high-wall Col. Whelen is shooting prone? The one with the fiddle-head carved in the stock? I think it's a Floyd Butler. Anybody know for sure?
Harold
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219don
Guest
Harold M. where are you in Central NY ? Ive hunted chucks there from way back in the 1960's. As recently as 10 years ago it wasn't unusual to bag 15 or 20 most any day in July or August. Now I'm lucky to even see 4 or 5 and most of them are on someone's front lawn. IMHO since the coyotes migrated here they have decimated the woodchuck population and our DEC is going to start checking them to see if they are eating deer. They will as soon as the last chuck is gone. Whatever.
The Landis tales come from a time when hunting in the NE was a lot more popular than it is now. And woodchucks were a lot more plentifull than they are now. I remember days in the 1960's when myself and three buddies would plopp down in in a likely field in the early AM and shoot at chucks untill 8 in the evening and no one felt deprived at not getting to shoot enough. I had a Win 70 Featherweight in 30-06 with a Weaver K-6, Eddie had a Mod 700 in 243 with a Weaver K-8, Billy Ack had a borrowed Rem 722 in 222 Mag but the scope escapes me, and Tommy D. had something but I dont recall what. We were able to take a few out at just over 300 yds. Ah, the good old days.
The Landis tales come from a time when hunting in the NE was a lot more popular than it is now. And woodchucks were a lot more plentifull than they are now. I remember days in the 1960's when myself and three buddies would plopp down in in a likely field in the early AM and shoot at chucks untill 8 in the evening and no one felt deprived at not getting to shoot enough. I had a Win 70 Featherweight in 30-06 with a Weaver K-6, Eddie had a Mod 700 in 243 with a Weaver K-8, Billy Ack had a borrowed Rem 722 in 222 Mag but the scope escapes me, and Tommy D. had something but I dont recall what. We were able to take a few out at just over 300 yds. Ah, the good old days.
I've read Landis's Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles, and Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles both of which make me happy that I'm living now and not then. Some neat old stuff, but it sounds like the best they had then would be maybe average today in rifles, scopes, and bullets. He sure didn't think much of Ackley's stuff either. Too noisy for his genteel tastes apparently.
Well you have to remember where they were hunting first of all. I grew up hunting in the Mohawk valley and Cherry valley in upstate N.Y. which is where a lot of his hunting was done and most shots were probably from 100-300 yards. Also, I have a 219 Zipper made by one of Landis' buddies, C.C. Meridith, and it has a chamber that looks like a modern BR chamber and will pump 55gr Sierras @ 3300fps into 3/4" groups all day long, pretty damn good for a 40's era gun IMHO.
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vicvanb
Guest
Coyotes
I agree. The areas I hunted in the 1950s and 1960s had no coyotes. Every hayfield had lots of woodchuck dens at that time. Coyotes came into that country in the 1970s. Now, most fields have no chuck holes. The survivors live close to buildings--in places coyotes avoid.
That country was also crawling with coons years ago. They are not as scarce as woodchucks now but much less common than in the 1960s.
In the old days there were no turkeys there either. They and the coyotes came at the same time. Turkeys increased to very high numbers despite the coyotes.
Deer in that area were hammered in the 1990s by too many doe permits for hunters. They have increased in recent years. Coyotes kill some deer but not enough to limit their numbers.
I agree. The areas I hunted in the 1950s and 1960s had no coyotes. Every hayfield had lots of woodchuck dens at that time. Coyotes came into that country in the 1970s. Now, most fields have no chuck holes. The survivors live close to buildings--in places coyotes avoid.
That country was also crawling with coons years ago. They are not as scarce as woodchucks now but much less common than in the 1960s.
In the old days there were no turkeys there either. They and the coyotes came at the same time. Turkeys increased to very high numbers despite the coyotes.
Deer in that area were hammered in the 1990s by too many doe permits for hunters. They have increased in recent years. Coyotes kill some deer but not enough to limit their numbers.
brian roberts
New member
The coyotes didn't just...........
"move in", gentlemen, there is ample evidence that game agencies have transplanted them from areas where they are more common, to some areas where they weren't. They have decimated the Pheasant population in Pennsylvania, and some have been shot w/game dept. tags in the ear.
"move in", gentlemen, there is ample evidence that game agencies have transplanted them from areas where they are more common, to some areas where they weren't. They have decimated the Pheasant population in Pennsylvania, and some have been shot w/game dept. tags in the ear.
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Larry Elliott
Guest
Brian, I can't believe that game departments and the FWS would move coyotes or wolves into an area. I mean Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and now several other states have wolves returning us to nature, but that wasn't done by.... Oh wait, yes it was.
No doubt many of the old custom varmint rifles were accurate, and some of the factory rifles too. What I meant with my earlier comment is that if a guy walks into a gun shop today and buys a factory rifle and some factory ammunition he can generally have a minute of varmint rifle. If not some minor bedding and trigger work will fix it.
No doubt many of the old custom varmint rifles were accurate, and some of the factory rifles too. What I meant with my earlier comment is that if a guy walks into a gun shop today and buys a factory rifle and some factory ammunition he can generally have a minute of varmint rifle. If not some minor bedding and trigger work will fix it.
Brian, I can't believe that game departments and the FWS would move coyotes or wolves into an area. I mean Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and now several other states have wolves returning us to nature, but that wasn't done by.... Oh wait, yes it was.
No doubt many of the old custom varmint rifles were accurate, and some of the factory rifles too. What I meant with my earlier comment is that if a guy walks into a gun shop today and buys a factory rifle and some factory ammunition he can generally have a minute of varmint rifle. If not some minor bedding and trigger work will fix it.
In Maine the wardens log predator hunting hours. I have 2 close friends that are wardens, and I can tell you, coyotes are shot on sight by our wardens
A custom Mauser in 220 Swift with a 40x super target spot, was then, and still is now, all you need to kill a woodchuck at 400 yards.
Woodchucks running over us here, as the straphangers move in and put up their posted signs, ordinances, run for town office, raise taxes.....and complain because all the roads are not paved.
I'd rather throw rocks at the woodchucks than deal with these times.
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steve b.
Guest
Like this...
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Larry Elliott
Guest
Maine sounds like Montana with people who know better than the uncivilized heathens also known as natives. They buy up big ranches, post them, close roads into National Forests that have been open to public travel for decades if not longer, and thumb their noses at us commoners. If anyone wants Ted Turner we'll give him away FOR FREE, but you'll have to take his family and hangers on too.
Amen. I've fished Paradise valley for a long time and remember when ol Ted wanted to knock down all the fences to let the Buffalo roam free. Got the impression about 1/2 the local cattle men carried a lenght of rope in the truck just in case they saw him on some back road.
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Wapiti
Guest
Is the 40X STS a factory item, or was it bumped?
As one who started his varmint shooting career years ago on Western Mass. woodchucks, I've enjoyed this post.
We never spent a whole day in one field then, however, nowadays I can on those 3-500 round prairie rat excursions.
Good shooting.
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vicvanb
Guest
The Super Target Spot was available up to 30X from Lyman. On hot days my 15X was about as high as I cared to go with the mirage.