The lightest trigger pull that works a goal?

T

tvtv

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You guys are amazing so here's something I've been wondering for a year. When I got my new .223 Savage LRPV the trigger pull was so light that I had to concentrate on when my finger would finally go to it.

I had to send it back to Savage because it wasn't grouping at all with 55gr factory ammo....still not happy about that. They sent it back with a target showing a tight group at 100yds using 69gr SMK.

The trigger pull was heavier when I got it back so I guess the guy at Savage who shot it thought the pull too light.

My question is this....if a gun is working correctly with a super light pull that you barely have to touch......is that the ideal for "BR"? Yes, I know the LRPV is not a true BR gun, but with 73gn Bergers it is shooting 1/2 moa.

One more thing I've been wondering.....do those BR forearm adapters like the Sinclair, etc. really improve accuracy for a gun like mine? Thanks.
 
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tvtv,
I could never get the 55gr bullet to shoot in my .223 1:9 savage. I don't know what it is about that weight...it just wouldn't group under 1.5" at 100yds. Throw in a 50, 52, 69, 75 or 77gr bullet and everthing was under an inch with the 69's shooting the best and most consistently .5MOA.

Lighter trigger pulls mean less disturbance of the rifle at firing, and less human error involved. This will equate to smaller groups. Lighter is better.

The sinclair forearm adapters can do nothing but improve the tracking capability of the rifle....consistency is everything when you are trying to shoot small groups. Does your gun have the HS precision stock? If so there may not be a huge difference, but if you shoot it enough and feel that you are at a point where you feel the gun is not tracking as well as it could I say go for it. There are a lot of factors that have to be absolutely perfect to shoot consistently small...tracking of the stock, scope holding true, consistent gun handling, perfect reloads, wind reading, etc...

Hope this helps,
Mike
 
tvtv said:
The trigger pull was heavier when I got it back so I guess the guy at Savage who shot it thought the pull too light.

My question is this....if a gun is working correctly with a super light pull that you barely have to touch......is that the ideal for "BR"?
Click to expand...

I doubt the fact they adjusted your trigger heavier was for accuracy.

Far more likely it was for liability purposes they set it up higher. Trigger pulls of 1.5 ounce are commonplace in BR.

Dick
 
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I have a lrpv in 204 that I shoot off my BR rest. With the 3 inch adapter from sinclairs I dont have to change the front bag on my rest. And yes it tracks much better than the round forearm and a small front bag in the rest.

the trigger pull is easily adjustable on the lrpv. When I shoot off the bench I set it pretty light. When I'm taking it out in the field I adjust it a little heavier.
 
There (probably) are some accuracy issues with the sear-firing pin engagement/release, but as Dick said, I seriously doubt that was the reason Savage adjusted the trigger. Moreover, the sear/firing pin relationship is not a simple "weight" issue, so increasing the felt pull may or may not address a problem, if there is one.

The Hart or Sinclair "Accuracy Asset" improves not so much the tracking, as to minimize the canting the rifle. I too have a Savage .223 -- an older one, circa 1990.

If money is tight (or you are), you an easily make your own plate. For my Savage, I bought a small plastic cutting board at Wally World. Cut out a 3" x 6" section. There was already an insert in the forearm for a sling, I just put in a second one & bolted the plate to it. Works fine, comes off easily.

Many 1:9 Savages seem to prefer heavier bullets. In mine, as you found, the 73-grain Berger seems to shoot very well. Almost as good is the LD JLK 70 grain (that's a flat-base bullet), Almost as good, and much harder to get, so my choice was easy. Things may reverse in any particular rifle

Oddly enough, in my rifle, the JLK shot best with VV 530, the 73-Berger with H4895. Again, powder preference can be an individual rifle thing.

The chamber in my Savage is about .010 large at the front. You can get a gismo from Sinclair to check the chamber depth -- it fits in a fired case, and shows where the end of the chamber neck is. Turns out my trim-to length is .010 longer than the SAAMI minimum. It also turns out that the case neck diameter of the chamber is significantly larger than SAAMI minimum, so neck-turning is out. If you turn necks, turn just enough to clean up about 50-60 percent. I didn't bother. I also got a Hornady neck die, and size only about 6/8ths of the neck, so there is a small portion of the neck remaining at the fired-but-sprung-back diameter. Helps a bit.

All these things are compromises my rifle likes. I tried to find the best compromises. You may or may not find they are helpful in yours. But here's the deal. These sorts of compromises are absent in a full-blown BR rifle. They have their own compromises, but they are different ones. The only reason I sat down with my Savage to figure out the little I did was to shoot it in a "Factory Class" match at our local club, which we started trying to drum up some participation of new shooters in benchrest.

* * *

Many of us who shoot benchrest started with a varmint rifle. I think everyone who shoots benchrest will tell you, don't spend too much money on the Savage. Fine to learn how too tune it, to make it shoot better by adjusting powder, bullets, seating depth, all things that also affect a BR rifle. If you want to shoot benchrest though, save your money and buy a BR rifle. Don't, for example, spend it on a BR-quality barrel for the Savage, unless what you are really after is to have a better varmint rifle. The only reason to send money on the Savage is because you DON'T want to shoot benchrest.

Good luck to you.
 
How do you hold the rifle? The reason that I ask is that I see a lot of fellows trying to shoot free recoil with rifles that are not stocked and/or balanced to shoot that way. As to the adapters, one drawback is that on most sporters they restrict bag placement to an area that is too far out on the forend given the lack of stock stiffness. It has been my experience that with a good bag/rest setup, on a bench that does not move, that one can often arrive at the smallest groups by holding a rifle more securely than most seem to want to try. It takes a very specific set of balance and stock design characteristics for a rifle to work well free recoil, and in many cases almost free can be less reliable than with more hold. The factory tester was shooting in an indoor range, and knows just how to hold the various models for best resuts. You might try a little experimenting. As I keep telling my friends that are of the try harder with the same technique school, you have to do something different to get different results.

One more thing, if you are reloading for this rifle, tell us about your reloading equipment and load. I have found that, in most cases, once a reasonable powder charge has been arrived at that much more is to be gained by working with seating depth than by fiddling with a tenth of a grain of powder on way or the other. All of my factory varmint rifles seem to shoot better with their bullets .006 to .010 into the rifling. As to bullet weight and twist, I have a friend that shoots 50 gran BlitzKings very well from a 9" twist Savage. I think that if the jackets are of good quality that light bullets can work fine.
 
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Thanks for the replies:

I shoot with a Sinclair Gen II front rest and a rear bag. I also use a Blackhawk cheek rest because my cheek and shoulder weld feels more secure. But for all I know you guys will say those things negatively effect accuracy.

I've been mostly neck sizing because all I shoot is the LRPV single shot bolt action. BUT then I read that even with a SS bolt gun it's best to FL size every time. I've decided not to turn necks even though I do throw away brass that is WAY out of wack on my Sinclair neck gauge. They state that it might be an indication of other problems with that case.

IT'S VERY HARD TO GET A HANDLE ON THINGS WITH SO MANY CONTRADICTIONS ABOUT EVERYTHING INVOLVED.

I use a Forster FL competition die and a Lee neck die. All my shot once and range brass are re-sized, trimmed, chamfered in and out, primer pockets uniformed and cleaned. I prime with a hand primer so I can feel how they go in. So far I think my gun likes bullets at ogive 1.990-5. Savage admits to making guns with large freebore.

I never even thought to try a lighter weight bullet after the 55gn Rem didn't group at all. I will do that and also get to my 4895. I wanted to keep at least Varget constant and find the right charge and seating before moving to another powder which changes all the variables again. I did try 75gn A-max's, but my gun at first glance didn't seem to like them.

I don't hunt. I do all other types of shooting...pistol, clays, blackpowder and even airgun. By far my favorite is trying to get the smallest consistent groups from the bench. When I can shoot the smallest groups possible with this gun and shooting it becomes boring I'll have to decide what to do. My goal is consistent 1/4-1/2" groups with this gun at my 200yd range.

Unfortunately, there are no benchrest competitions on Long Island where I can go and actually see what's going on. Maybe this summer I'll travel to one or two. But I do milk the forums for all I can find out. Things keep popping up all the time like on this thread alone re. lighter bullets. It was only yesterday that I found out about forearm adapters and I've been researching heavily about a year now. Also, I just learned from Charles E above not to waste money on a a benchrest type barrel for the Savage.

--thanks.
 
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My goal is consistent 1/4-1/2" groups with this gun at my 200yd range.
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You realize that this is .125 to .25 MOA. That is better than most benchrest rifles shoot in competition at 200 yards -- that is, with "conditions," which are usually wind. Most of us, at 200 yards, would happily settle for an aggregate around .4 inches (.2 MOA).

And just to be real clear, I wouldn't put a custom BR barrel on the Savage if your ultimate goal is to shoot benchrest, assuming money is an issue. If your ultimate goal is to shoot informally at the range, and not against full-blown BR rifles, then a custom barrel might be something you'd consider. Or if you have the financial resources to both buy a BR rifle & rebarrrel the Savage, again, not an issue. But if shooting any form of benchrest competition is you goal, don't spend money trying to make the Savage competitive. You'll wind up spending more, & likely have a "not quite" rifle.
 
Long Island! You have some shoots that may not be too far away (3-4hrs :D). Check the internationalbenchrest.com site under the schedule link.
I am starting matches in CT this summer, and you are more than welcome to come down and check it out. The first shoot will be August 15th and will be under IBS VFS, VH, HBR, and factory/semi-custom 100yd score competition rules and regs. A great bunch of guys who will go out of their way to make a new guy feel welcome (I know because as of last month I had never been to a match much less competed in one).
Check out www.bellcity.org under the benchrest link.
Whatever you bring to shoot we will have a class for you.
Come on down if you can. send me a pm if you have any questions.

There are also matches in Jersey, both group and score. Good luck!

Mike
 
Charles E said:
But if shooting any form of benchrest competition is you goal, don't spend money trying to make the Savage competitive. You'll wind up spending more, & likely have a "not quite" rifle.
Click to expand...

Truer words were never spoken. The only thing left on my Savage Model 12 VLP-S originally in 223 Remington (now in 6mm Beggs) is the action and part of the bolt. My Fred Moreo "tricked up" Savage has shot a zero and some teen groups but it will never shoot as well as my Billy Stevens smithed 6PPC. :) Art
 
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I'll second what Boyd said about seating depth. I have the same gun, and I have shot several .3 aggs in competiton with 52 gr. bullets and N-133. The magic thing is the seating depth. I found it by pure luck. I started out just touching to .020" off with not much luck. When I hit .070" off the lands, it came alive. A .005" adjustment either way blowed groups out to almost an inch.
 
100 and 200 yds. 100 yds aggs. were .350" ish, 200 yds, .750"ish. I havn't shot 1 match this year that the conditions were not crappy at best. Seems like every match was held on a day that rained and or blowed. Hopefully it will be better this weekend.
 
I just thought I would add my 2 cents worth, since the subject is rather close to my heart. Some years ago I was informed that you just could not compete in group BR with a .223 rem cartridge. Being the sort of person I am, I immediately went out and bought a Savage model 12 and began modifying it. Eventually I ended up with a Savage bolt with a whole new gun built around it. It now shoots a consistent .4" to .5" group at 200 yards when the wind is not too tricky. Had I invested the same money in a good 6ppc I would have been far ahead. But I did it for the fun of it and also because it was easy to get a left handed (though not green) rifle from Savage.

Today, if you want to get a rifle that has a real chance at being competitive in short BR and not too expensive, and a Savage, you should contact Fred Moreo at Sharp Shooter Supply. the combination of the new Savage action, Fred's gunsmithing, new 2 oz. trigger, a stock of your choice and a good barrel is hard to beat, especially for the price.

I've had my Moreo/Savage 6mmbr norma for just a short while and am still experimenting with loads. I've been shooting several one hole 3 shot groups at 100 and 200 yards before the Douglas barrel fouls and I think I am zeroing in on a load. If this setup had been around 10 years ago I'd be ahead of the game by now, but I DO like to experiment.............but I shoulda got a Shilen like my .223................................

http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/
 
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