The Factory Side

LW Moore

LW Moore

Member
Factory class shooting and new starters must be at a halt ?,with only two posts showing on this forum in the last month, I can remember this place running as fast as the full custom benchrest forums. Have we schooled all who were once interested ?, or have they been ran off because of harsh responses ?
 
Factory

LW -

Howdy !

I wonder whether the current components crunch doesn't also play some part in this ?

Its gotta impact the level of experimentation / load development, and even the amount of competition(s) that can be participated in.

Speaking for myself, my intended choice for use in area " factory class " shoots was my hyper-accurate Marlin M-336 XLR .35 Rem.
I DID manage to $$$ an actual CT-made XLR before the Remmy take-over, the following recent couple of years has seen Remington abandon the reloading components market.
And, while I also managed to $$$ some proprietary Remington brass, Rem factory .35Rem ( 150gr ) ammo, and a variety of other .358" cal bulllets; what I garnered is by NO means anything like a life-long supply.

In that regard, for any shooters late to react and/or notably limited in the amounts of ammo & components they could $$$; I can see where their customary shooting levels could have been
negatively impacted ( IMHO ).

FWIW -
Having the current Democrat ( Socialist ) in-office followed by another Democrat ( from NY ), is likely to not improve the situation any.

Keep on buying.


With sincere regards,
.357Mag
 
I was told Factory Class is not "Benchrest" here. But I take it with a grain of salt as the info I've gained here has helped me to be more successful in "non benchrest" benchrest match shooting. LOL.
 
Id agree that shortage is playing in heavy on a lot of peoples shooting... As to factory class benchrest shooting, I started in a club factory class, I still believe it is the basic way many of us got started, Id love to see a show of honest hands on folks whom didn't know how to reload and never shot a hunting or varmint rifle much off a table with plan old sandbags that just showed up at a BR match or read something in a magazine or online on the subject and said WOW I want to do that and went right out and gathered up $2500-$5000 worth of stuff and went at it...
 
That was one of the points I was trying to bring out Stool in this thread, Had folks with factory rifles flat gave up on this forum for reasons of getting fried every time they asked a question... There are many days I wish I could go back to what was fun, plan old hunting rifle shooting off a table with a bunch of shotbag sandbags... I thought that was benchrest back then... It sure was to me and I couldn't learn things fast enough..
 
Had a "first-time" factory shooter at our match this weekend with his Remington tactical rig in .308. He learned a lot about the thump of 175-gr. bullets in a .308 by about the third paper he shot, but I'll say this: Not one of the "benchrest" shooters had any more fun than he did. I still don't understand why IBS doesn't have a Factory class as it's the foundation of the sport. But I'm not looking to start that discussion again as we've been-there-done-that on the forum over the years.
 
Having been involved for a long time - -

The end results always comes up the same, competitors, by nature, will do whatever they can afford to do to win. This ultimately leads to one or more people out-spending everyone else and winning most of the time. That's why they spend. That is, in my opinion, why a Factory Class is ultimately, just another way to either buy the potential for success or make what would be, otherwise, perfectly honest people something other than honest.

The only way I can see to ever make true "Factory Class" fair and honest is for a club or group to own all the rifles and ammo, all of it as exact to equal as possible. All of that would be issued by drawing when a person signed up to shoot and then everyone has somewhat of an even playing field to start on. Otherwise we end up back in the same place. The problems comes with the need for rules and this is where the booger falls into the soup.

The reason evolution happens is because of the human desire to win and to some it is a Blood Sport. We all long for when life was simple but we all live to make our lives more and more sophisticated and there is no way to go back, back to homes with u--airtight wood stoves, oil lamps, carrying water in to the house and using the privy even when it's -30*. We must either accept progress or die.

The real fun in competing comes when one can go to a shoot mostly to be there and simply enjoy being alive and socializing with the friends one acquires when being involved in an endeavor that pleases them. Life should firstly be about enjoying one's self. I have never once felt enjoyment, true enjoyment, in winning anything. Accomplishment, maybe but not the true inner warmth of enjoying something.

Pete
 
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Pete,your 100% right and have been about many things over the number of years that I have known you, and Reed you are right as well there should be but there's not and this fight has been fought before and there are never any winners.. I could see the 308 shooter in which you spoke of getting his head kicked off and rushing to get back on target to repeat the process, for I was once the same.......
 
Pete Wass said:
The only way I can see to ever make true "Factory Class" fair and honest is for a club or group to own all the rifles and ammo, all of it as exact to equal as possible. All of that would be issued by drawing when a person signed up to shoot and then everyone has somewhat of an even playing field to start on.
Click to expand...

Would you say the same about all classes? :)
 
Hi PeterW ... are you back from the sunny southland? And doing well, I presume.

I only have my own experiences to rely on. No. 1, if someone wants to cheat, it's pretty difficult to eliminate it. In benchrest, there are fewer variables to deal with than, say, auto racing. Factory class shooting has even fewer variables. A box-stock factory rifle is fairly easy to verify. At our matches we allow free-floating if not already done, and a lighter trigger just because it's darned hard to do much sandbag shooting with a 12-lb. trigger. We have never eliminated anybody for illegal equipment. If a trigger is questionable, it can be checked. Same with a barrel, bedding, adding pillars, etc.

We have had over 20 different Factory shooters at our matches, including myself who started there. Just off the top of my head, a half-dozen of them ended up with BR rigs and participate in our matches. The others still prefer egg shooting to the "formal" stuff. I have never understood the nitpicking over Factory rules. Handloading, of course, is allowed; couldn't care less what you shoot. If you want to use factory loads or Black Hills or Federal Match or whatever, have at it.

When we first started there was a lot of controversy over allowing Coopers, Sakos, 40XB, etc., to shoot. But we soon found that the Savages, Remingtons, etc. were at no disadvantage and for several years our mantra was, "If you want to win in Factory class you'll have to beat a Savage to do it".

I think the sport is missing a lot of opportunities to introduce new shooters to the sport, put more butts on the benches, and create a lot of interest in the sport by allowing a Factory class that isn't necessarily under the same microscopic micromanagement the "big guns" are. There isn't any "spectator value" to BR shooting, watching the grass grow is as exciting as watching somebody stare downrange for minutes on end, pull the trigger, reload, and do it all over again. So just seeing a BR match is not all that much of an incentive to drop $4000 on equipment and see if you like it.
 
ReedG said:
So just seeing a BR match is not all that much of an incentive to drop $4000 on equipment and see if you like it.
Click to expand...

I guess I fell into that low percentage of incentive,,hahahe,, The very first match I shot was in factory class and I shot beside a full custom gun,although it took me a few years to be able to get one, I couldn't wait... After years of it many times I wished I could go back, but as Pete said it just don't work that way, the investment became to large.. For sure much of the fun and excitement is long gone but I cant stop entirely as the game became a part of me as did many of the people.
 
Just my $0.02.

Factory is *great* as an on-ramp for new shooters.

When it gets to be seasoned shooters competing in Factory and in aggs that involve Factory, it rapidly gets to be much more expensive than custom.
 
SG,what you said right there is the real truth if I ever heard it, I remember back in the late 70s or very early 80s, this area was dirt bike crazy, motocross was the thing to do but the local track had its share of talent and most new want-to-be racers were intimidated, so a person way smarter then I came up with a beginners class , a rider could stay there for one season only, perhaps that is the solution or part of one, limit the time one can stay there... I know some folks wont and many cant afford to go custom and forcing folks out of a factory class comes with a set of its own troubles... Which reminds me of yet another story.I tried my hand at NRA highpower a long time ago and there was this guy in the marksman class that nearly always won or at least placed in the top trophy receiving bunch, I asked him once why he never qualified for sharpshooter and moved up, his reply was very simple, he said "it takes three matchs in a row with a certain number of points to move up,so I win a couple then have a bad day,because if I move to sharpshooter I will never get another trophy again"..
 
Well - -

aka Hunter said:
Would you say the same about all classes? :)
Click to expand...

All the other classes have evolved into what they are now FROM what once was Factory Guns. As LW said, this debate is a very old one. There ain't no way to ever go back home is the bottom line.

Pete
 
It's a tough bridge to build I think

I too came out of the Factory Rifle ranks. Once I saw that a re-worked Rem 700 could shoot tiny holes I had to have one.

My first Benchrest rifle, which I still have today, is a 30HC Hunter Rifle. I bought it impulsively, not realizing I would need to use a 6 X scope but bought it I did, in 1999. It has been the platform for several barrels and a small faced bolt, which I intend to use BUT, I don't seem to find time :).

Prior to the Factory Benchrest thigs I ran Rimfire Benchrest Matches at the club I was a member of back then. That evolved the same way all Factory classes seem to. The International styled rifles came out of the closets and then I bought a Real 40X bench rifle. I learned what using an evolved tool can do to please one.

After many years of shooting CF Score with too many Custom rifles to discuss I have gone back home to the Rimfire. More challenging, a lot less noise and violence and 6 times more shooting in a usual match day. More expensive but all my assets belong to the Nursing Home, as do most of yours. I am on a mission to spend it before they can get to it :).

Rimfire Benchrest is hard to do well and there are more people who can buy whatever they want to win, from what I have seen. I like it anyway. I compete at a level I can afford and enjoy the ride. The ride is all there is to it anyway, in the end. I do well now and again, even against the best there is but it is always more pleasing to know I was there and shot the best I could. I like to win, like we all do but not to where I am obsessed with it.

Pete


Pete
 
I have no thoughts as to why this forum hasn't been getting much use lately. I do have some thoughts about competition in Factory Class. We've begun our 4th year with a Factory Class in Ultimate Benchrest matches. With all 4 classes the turnout at Gallatin Gun Club has been enthusiastic. Attendance for the monthly match here is running around 30 rifles. Custom class always has the most, but Factory Class is always 2nd and comes close now and then. Most of our competitiors in Factory Class are regulars who don't seem all that interested in moving to Custom Class since they have good competition in their own. Although a Sako wins quite a bit we have a couple of Savages that are also in the winners circle as often as not.
I haven't seen any problem with cheating at all. We allow bedding, crowning, any scope, any trigger and accuracy assist plates. The thing I've observed is that with factory stock configurations and factory barrels, there is a limiting factor to what can be accomplished, but beyond that the competition is fair and good. Most of our regulars have no obvious desire to "move up". I think the idea that cheating is or can be a problem is over rated. I think the SSOY in Factory class has been won by a Sako, Remington, Cooper and maybe a Savage.

Rick
 
I don't think that there is a rash of cheating. I do think that it can get to be a very expensive game.

At the most simple is buying and selling Savages till you find a winner.

Then, there is the Cooper route. Have it rebarreled if it doesn't shoot or is shot out. Make sure that they give you a letter of authenticity for the barrel (now, how an unmarked barrel and a letter of authenticity can be tied together is another question for another day). There is the problem with Coopers, etc not being accepted on some factory formats other than UBR.

Gah. Unless I stumble on something good, I'll just stick to modified, custom and, maybe (big grin) unlimited.
 
stool said:
gentlemen...
i run a factory class you can shoot today..

vintage military bolt action at 100 yards, iron sights..
we use to shoot 10 shots per target, but have since gone to 5's for economic reasons( its my match and it was voted in when i wasn't there....lol)
it is a 300yd target reduced... the x is just under 1"

no bedding, rework of stock triggers, taller sight but of original width, no one pc rests, front sight hood only if a original factory item.
spotting scopes are fine.
while the bbl can be replaced, only in factory chambering and profile

hand loads rule, but gp11 for the swiss k31 is pretty good stuff and has won matches.

most rifles are 100-200 bucks..tho the cost of a swede '96 has gone over 300....
Click to expand...

Howdy Stool,
Solid points. Has to be a fun match! There will likely always be that gray area, though. I'm guessing the Swedish Mausers won more than their share. At some point in time, I'm guessing some observant ol' boy figured out a CG63 was issued, and likely wanted to compete with it. I've had a couple of them, sadly gone now. Both of them outperformed my 40X at 100 yards. That was jaw dropping.

Then I had an Enfield #4T sniper. That was issued. They were shot for accuracy at the factory, and those that were more accurate were sent to Holland and Holland to become sniper rifles. I presume one could shoot that without the scope at one of these matches. That thing was formidable. Sadly, it too is gone.......but I know where it lives.

Oh, back to Swedes, I had a M41, NOT M41B, sniper. WOW! If anyone showed up with one of those, they'd be hard to beat.

Those have to be fun matches, but even there, someone is gonna find out which rifles have a bit more going for them than the others. That being said, competing with functional pieces of history has to be fun!

Take care,

Greg
 
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