The Equalizing Scoring Reticle

[Greyfox]

One other thing-
I can't speak for Danny, but I think I can say that those of us who are active in UBR have no interest in drawing shooters away from the two major benchrest organizations, IBS/NBRSA. We saw that what was available wasn't working as well as it could be and there appeared to be no viable way to change things within the existing orgs. So, we started something new. As I have said, in our area most participants are new shooters, not someone coming from existing orgs. I isn't our aim to hurt what's already in place. We've seen all the old mistakes and made our fair share. We're not interested in remaking old mistakes, we're focused on making some new ones. BTW- that's a joke people. If I can assist anyone with our experiences, please contact me. As with the earlier proposal of a Score Super Shoot, UBR shooters wouldn't be opposed, but there would need to be compromises on both sides. We are not against you. We all want to grow the sport.

Rick

 

[JEFFPPC]

I have shot both

A local club I shoot at started having UBR matches this summer. I like the idea of caliber neutrality. The only problem was the price of the targets, actually the price of the shipping involved. This summer while on a trip to Michigan I shot a match at a club that used a scoring reticule that matched everything to a .30 hole. I thought it was a great idea. Now you can shoot any target and no advantage to the guy with a larger caliber. I believe one of the main reasons for a drop in shooters that started in. the early 2000,s.was the 30BR. Those who did't handle the recoil or perhaps the expense of another gun just went away. Freeze existing records and start over. While I am on my soapbox, I hated to see the 3inch rule go away. It seems to me those who want to experiment with whatever have a class for that in unlimited. I know, we are suppose to be advancing accuracy, but, I think we should learn to shoot better and not "buy points". Once it gets to the point that only a machinist with an engineering degree can be competitive the sport will go away. No, that is not directed towards those in the sport with those qualifications, I have great respect for them.

 

[Hunter]

Jackie,...It’s just as easy to stock all the caliber targets as to stock for IBS.... We have a valid Factory Class....The majority of our shooters did not come from other organizations.

Rick, other than requiring a little more space to stock 3x the number of targets, I agree that stocking UBR targets is no big deal. However, if one person is responsible for marking the targets before the shoot, the UBR targets are much more of a hassle.

As for a "valid Factory Class," I probably disagree, since I don't think factory class should include a gun with after-market parts (including a trigger).

I do think it's amazing that UBR had about 200 shooters last year, the majority of which did not come from the IBS or NBRSA -- congratulations to all of you for helping grow benchrest.

 

[JEFFPPC]

Unsafe triggers

I would ask you to consider this. Shooter shows up with his kitchen table butchered factory "adjusted" trigger that is unstable, goes of when closing the bolt, and the safe no longer works, gun goes off when you take the safe off, or, a safe replacement trigger. I see this rule at most matches I go to with a factory class. I think it is a really unsafe and dumb rule. plus, you just ruled out the varmint hunter with a replacement trigger in place of his "lawyer designed" factory trigger that we all snicker about.

 

[Hunter]

I would ask you to consider this. Shooter shows up with his kitchen table butchered factory "adjusted" trigger that is unstable, goes of when closing the bolt, and the safe no longer works, gun goes off when you take the safe off, or, a safe replacement trigger. I see this rule at most matches I go to with a factory class. I think it is a really unsafe and dumb rule. plus, you just ruled out the varmint hunter with a replacement trigger in place of his "lawyer designed" factory trigger that we all snicker about.

That's easy -- all guns must be in safe operating condition. As for the varmint hunter, there is a modified class. You want to shoot in factory class, shoot a factory gun.

 

[Kyle Schultz]

We have our first NBRSA VFS Match in Lake Charles tomorrow. I have to get up at 3:00 AM.I will ask everybody what they think. UBR, Equalized Soring Reticle, or just leave things as they are.

For those who recognize it, Jackie said the key words above. Until you attract shooters who are enthusiastic enough about the sport to get up at 3am and drive 2 hours to a match, changing the targets or the scoring methodology will IMO do nothing to change the long term vitality of the sport.

 

[mwezell]

Targets..

After the first order, the number of targets is the same as any other match. It's based on how many shooters compete.

Also, the UBR targets have multiple sighters. UBR encourages ranges to have the 3 minute warm up on one of those. When the commenced fire is given for match 1, you have plenty of sighters left plus the six record bulls to shoot.

Another thing is that the yardage consists of 4 targets instead of 5. So, 4x6=24 bulls per yardage. In other words, in UBR you use 4 targets per yardage vs 6 for IBS/NBRSA, including warm ups.

As an aside, consider the effect this has on time to run matches.

Again, I think target cost is a non-issue.

It's not difficult for one person to prepare the targets for everyone but simply having the competitors put their competitor number and match number on the caliber target that corresponds to the caliber they're shooting, works very well too.

 

[Dave Coots]

My take is that if you want caliber neutrality, go to UBR. If you don't, stay with IBS and NBRSA. Let the fault, blame, praise fall where it may.

I have not shot score for many years, but it seems UBR takes the advantage of the deer rifle out of the game.
Tweaking what we have now in both sanctioning bodies may not work, but something like UBR may work. Time will tell.
Dave

 

[mwezell]

Equal?
Just give everyone a participation trophy!

Francis, you'd enjoy coming to a match and trying to actually win one of those trophies. They don't come easy and you will have earned it if you win one in the crowd down here. UBR has a class and a place for everyone, including you, Francis ...but it's not what I'd call a game where everyone goes home with a trophy. If you can make it, bring your A game and wear your lucky Superman underwear.

 

[Greyfox]

Since it's come up again two or three times, I'll address the target "issue" again. IBS 100 yard targets cost $23.00 per 100 (.23ea) 200 yard targets cost $26.00 per 100 (.26). It takes 5 of each for a 100/200 agg. That's a total cost of targets for a 100/200 yard Agg of $2.24. I usually average the cost of targets for a match or when I send out a small package @ .25 ea. Danny just negotiated a lower price for the 200 yard UBR targets, so I think the price will be under .20 ea averaged. It takes 8 targets for a 100/200 yard Agg for a grand total of $1.60 per shooter, a savings over IBS targets of .85 per shooter. I'm pretty sure shipping is the same for IBS targets as it is for UBR targets. Like Mike said, target cost really shouldn't be an issue either way. I mean if .85 is going to make a difference I can't see you staying in a game where a .308 match bullet costs .46. Put another way 4 .308 bullets costs more than the 8 UBR targets you will shoot in a match.

As far as target organization, for the two matches I run, I take a few minutes during the week before the match and clip together sets of 4-100 & 4- 200 yard targets to refill my supply. I usually have packets of about 25 sets of .243, 8 sets of .224 and 8 sets of .308. This is based on what folks shoot at these matches. When a shooter signs up and pays his match fee I hand him a packet of targets and provide a marker for him/her to mark his own targets. This saves a lot of time and if the shooter makes a mistake it's on him, not me. Seems to be working pretty well.

I will admit it takes a bit more planning to stock enough targets for the calibers used. But I think most of us are adults and can handle simple tasks. Target costs and stocking etc are really a non-issue. In my experience, over the long run there will be much less time spent dealing with neutral targets than dealing with the scoring hassles that WILL come up using a universal reticle. But I don't make $$ on targets and neither does Danny, so if you prefer a reticle knock yourself out.

Rick

 

[mwezell]

Rick, the only thing I'd like to add is that in IBS, they use 6 targets per yardage, due to the separate warm up at each yardage. I'd have to look and I'm not sure about NBRSA, but I think the separate warm up is a rule requirement in IBS.
So, where cost is concerned, it's 6 targets per shooter at each yardage, vs 4 targets in UBR.

People can do what they want and there are reasons why people prefer one game over another, but so far, all I've seen in these threads are people looking for excuses or chinks in the UBR armor. The armor is holding up very well when everything is taken into consideration.

UBR is legitimate and is a well thought out form of BR competition. Nothing is perfect but UBR is proving worthy of consideration as a way to get into benchrest as well as for existing and veteran members of all shooting disciplines to get involved with.

This was Danny's brainchild and he deserves a metric ton of credit for doing such a remarkable job of conceiving this and and putting the pieces of the puzzle together and into a remarkable game for accuracy minded people like we all are, here.

I'm just proud to be a small part of it all.


.

 

[Greyfox]

Rick, the only thing I'd like to add is that in IBS, they use 6 targets per yardage, due to the separate warm up at each yardage. I'd have to look and I'm not sure about NBRSA, but I think the separate warm up is a rule requirement in IBS.
So, where cost is concerned, it's 6 targets per shooter at each yardage, vs 4 targets in UBR.

People can do what they want and there are reasons why people prefer one game over another, but so far, all I've seen in these threads are people looking for excuses or chinks in the UBR armor. The armor is holding up very well when everything is taken into consideration.

UBR is legitimate and is a well thought out form of BR competition. Nothing is perfect but UBR is proving worthy of consideration as a way to get into benchrest as well as for existing and veteran members of all shooting disciplines to get involved with.

This was Danny's brainchild and he deserves a metric ton of credit for doing such a remarkable job of conceiving this and and putting the pieces of the puzzle together and into a remarkable game for accuracy minded people like we all are, here.

Correct on all points.
Rick

 

[jackie schmidt]

I would ask you to consider this. Shooter shows up with his kitchen table butchered factory "adjusted" trigger that is unstable, goes of when closing the bolt, and the safe no longer works, gun goes off when you take the safe off, or, a safe replacement trigger. I see this rule at most matches I go to with a factory class. I think it is a really unsafe and dumb rule. plus, you just ruled out the varmint hunter with a replacement trigger in place of his "lawyer designed" factory trigger that we all snicker about.

The only time you can have a bolt in a Rifle at a BR Match is when you are under the command of "insert bolts, commence fire.

If a shooter has a trigger that goes off pre-mature, that's his problem.

At Tomball, in our Factory class, we do not allow the 40x, Savage Target Models, including F Class, or any other "Factory" target Rifles. They can shoot in the Modified Class.

In the Factory Class, you can make no modifications except improve the bedding. Period.

 

[LHSmith]

I have shot IBS score here in NE PA since 2003. I have campaigned .22, 6mm, and .30 cal rifles. I am currently attempting to go back to using a .30 BR after giving up on the cartridge a few years back due to recoil issues. My most enjoyable rifle to shoot is a .222 HV. So it should come as no surprise that the UBR format appeals to me. However, it does not trip my trigger enough to drive 4 hours to the nearest UBR match when I am 15 minutes from my closest IBS venue and another 90 minutes away.
My concern about UBR is the rules. I looked at the UBR website and find little information about rules. The IBS rule book on short range BR has 32 pages of standards , definitions, procedures, safety, group and score shooting rules. These can be easily accessed on the IBS website. Lots of unknowns when one considers UBR such as how crossfires are handled? flag use and placement? how benches are drawn? are muzzle breaks legal? What are the commands? What is the chain of command at a match? Is there a protest procedure? What equipment is allowed on benches? -fans, chronos, electronic wind gauges......, DQ procedure? etc. I could go on and on. I can appreciate keeping rules simple and to a minimum. However I've been to enough matches to know how some will subvert the rules to gain the smallest advantage, and without rules and written procedures I can't see matches running without disrupting incidents.
I appreciate that the IBS has great match reporting and every match I ever attended is on record. It has provided me with the opportunity to compete against some of the very best in the game.
FWIW, I would favor one target for all calibers- I don't like the idea of competitors handling unfired targets and I can see the target crews trying to decipher someones cryptic written numbers, placing the targets on the wrong frame and end up with a host of delays or worse -crossfires. Also, along with different targets will be the potential for varying quality of target paper from different lots throwing an unwanted variable into the mix when it comes to fair scoring.

 

[Wilbur]

The UBR does not have rules that are on the same planet as the IBS. Truthfully, I thought the same thing. Turns out, the UBR hasn't needed those rules yet. They seem to just shrug their shoulders, and after a bit of chit chat, go home when the match is over and warm up for the next one. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but rather think they're doing it right for now. One day that might change but again, it's OK for now as attendance has shown.

Another question I'll add for what it's worth - Why have those rules if they're not enforced? One answer is that folks just want to shoot and not take the time or effort to ensure the rules are being followed.

I'll end this with my personal thought on the matter...some care and some don't and I think the dont's outnumber the do's.

 

[jackie schmidt]

The UBR does not have rules that are on the same planet as the IBS. Truthfully, I thought the same thing. Turns out, the UBR hasn't needed those rules yet. They seem to just shrug their shoulders, and after a bit of chit chat, go home when the match is over and warm up for the next one. I'm not saying that's a bad thing but rather think they're doing it right for now. One day that might change but again, it's OK for now as attendance has shown.

Another question I'll add for what it's worth - Why have those rules if they're not enforced? One answer is that folks just want to shoot and not take the time or effort to ensure the rules are being followed.

I'll end this with my personal thought on the matter...some care and some don't and I think the dont's outnumber the do's.

Wilbur, I talked to several shooters at Lake Charles yesterday, and you are right. Most do not care, mainly in changing the NBRSA VFS Format. The general argument is, the sudden death aspect of the current score system, especially at 200 yards, is one of the major aspects of the difficulty of VFS. Yes, often the best shooter with the best Rifle doesn't win because of one error out of 50 record shots. Every shooter knows that when they sit down at the Bench.

As far as the target inequality, several shooters stated that's the added difficulty in shooting the larger caliber makes up for the advantage in bullet diameter.

The Equalizing Reticle showed some support, mainly in that youmstill are shooting one Target, allows any caliber to compete, and retains the "sudden death" aspect of the current Format.

Yesterday, I shot my 30BR at 100, and my new combination of a 1 in 12 twist 6PPC, (.140 throat), shooting Barts 80 grn bullets at 200. The 6PPC won the day, the combination handled the tough conditions pretty good.

I'm beginning to think that there is room for both the UBR Format and the NBRSA/IBS Format in Score Shooting. Each has a unique quirk that adds to the intrigue. True, I would love to be shooting in a Format where if I do do make a mistake, (shoot a nine), that I can split the difference by hitting an eleven.

But then, when I win a Match with a 500 25x, and the second place shooter shot a 499 35x, I feel that "this is a pretty neat game".

If there were UBR Matches in the Gulf Coast Region, I would shoot them. But I don't know of any current Clubs or Ranges that are willing.

 

[mwezell]

I have shot IBS score here in NE PA since 2003. I have campaigned .22, 6mm, and .30 cal rifles. I am currently attempting to go back to using a .30 BR after giving up on the cartridge a few years back due to recoil issues. My most enjoyable rifle to shoot is a .222 HV. So it should come as no surprise that the UBR format appeals to me. However, it does not trip my trigger enough to drive 4 hours to the nearest UBR match when I am 15 minutes from my closest IBS venue and another 90 minutes away.
My concern about UBR is the rules. I looked at the UBR website and find little information about rules. The IBS rule book on short range BR has 32 pages of standards , definitions, procedures, safety, group and score shooting rules. These can be easily accessed on the IBS website. Lots of unknowns when one considers UBR such as how crossfires are handled? flag use and placement? how benches are drawn? are muzzle breaks legal? What are the commands? What is the chain of command at a match? Is there a protest procedure? What equipment is allowed on benches? -fans, chronos, electronic wind gauges......, DQ procedure? etc. I could go on and on. I can appreciate keeping rules simple and to a minimum. However I've been to enough matches to know how some will subvert the rules to gain the smallest advantage, and without rules and written procedures I can't see matches running without disrupting incidents.
I appreciate that the IBS has great match reporting and every match I ever attended is on record. It has provided me with the opportunity to compete against some of the very best in the game.
FWIW, I would favor one target for all calibers- I don't like the idea of competitors handling unfired targets and I can see the target crews trying to decipher someones cryptic written numbers, placing the targets on the wrong frame and end up with a host of delays or worse -crossfires. Also, along with different targets will be the potential for varying quality of target paper from different lots throwing an unwanted variable into the mix when it comes to fair scoring.

Lamar, you bring up some good questions but they are all handled on the website under Rule Book. Bottom line, you can't subvert a rule if it isn't a rule. This is the beauty of keeping things so simple and it promotes experimentation and looking for that small advantage.

That said, the match director has the authority to deal with issues like flags being in someone elses lane as well as any and all safety concerns.

I hope I'm not leaving anything out, specifically, but that pretty well covers it, I think. I'm not aware of any issues, that from previous matches are unresolved, to date. UBR's current structure allows it to respond quickly when a need arises.
So, if you're at a UBR match and you see anything that is a safety or competitive issue, I encourage you to take it to your match director immediately so that it can be dealt with at the match and management levels, promptly. To date, things have worked remarkably well. This speaks highly of the organization, it's directors and most importantly, the character of its participants.

Yes, UBR is reaching a point where it will need to address various issues including it's own basic structure. This is being discussed.

I'm not sure how IBS or NBRSA got started, but I have to assume, at some point in their own beginnings, there were a few shooters that got together and shot, and that things grew from there. Yes, you're right. UBR has grown beyond its humble beginnings. With growth, there are bound to be some pains along the way. --M

 

[mwezell]

Wilbur, I talked to several shooters at Lake Charles yesterday, and you are right. Most do not care, mainly in changing the NBRSA VFS Format. The general argument is, the sudden death aspect of the current score system, especially at 200 yards, is one of the major aspects of the difficulty of VFS. Yes, often the best shooter with the best Rifle doesn't win because of one error out of 50 record shots. Every shooter knows that when they sit down at the Bench.

As far as the target inequality, several shooters stated that's the added difficulty in shooting the larger caliber makes up for the advantage in bullet diameter.

The Equalizing Reticle showed some support, mainly in that youmstill are shooting one Target, allows any caliber to compete, and retains the "sudden death" aspect of the current Format.

Yesterday, I shot my 30BR at 100, and my new combination of a 1 in 12 twist 6PPC, (.140 throat), shooting Barts 80 grn bullets at 200. The 6PPC won the day, the combination handled the tough conditions pretty good.

I'm beginning to think that there is room for both the UBR Format and the NBRSA/IBS Format in Score Shooting. Each has a unique quirk that adds to the intrigue. True, I would love to be shooting in a Format where if I do do make a mistake, (shoot a nine), that I can split the difference by hitting an eleven.

But then, when I win a Match with a 500 25x, and the second place shooter shot a 499 35x, I feel that "this is a pretty neat game".

If there were UBR Matches in the Gulf Coast Region, I would shoot them. But I don't know of any current Clubs or Ranges that are willing.

Jackie, I applaud you for bringing it up and speaking to your club members about it.

The best advice I can offer is to hold a few UBR matches, to allow yourself and your members the chance to form their own feelings, for and against the different games, after having actually done both for enough time to get a feel of it. It's different, so I think it's only natural to buck against things that aren't the norm at first. The most obvious thing that jumps out at you is when scoring UBR targets, you're dealing with 11's instead of 10's, for the most part. Not difficult at all...just different. Instead of a 50-5x target, a perfect target in UBR is a 66.
Again, just a small difference but one that tells a lot about how our minds work when we've been doing something differently for a long time. For me when scoring, it's easier to count the points dropped than to add all the 10's and 11's. Both ways work and you get use to it after a couple or three matches.

 

[WyleWD]

Just to expand a bit on this post..

Rick, other than requiring a little more space to stock 3x the number of targets, I agree that stocking UBR targets is no big deal. However, if one person is responsible for marking the targets before the shoot, the UBR targets are much more of a hassle.

As for a "valid Factory Class," I probably disagree, since I don't think factory class should include a gun with after-market parts (including a trigger).

I do think it's amazing that UBR had about 200 shooters last year, the majority of which did not come from the IBS or NBRSA -- congratulations to all of you for helping grow benchrest.

Having competed in a couple of unsanctioned UBR matches I'm thinking that Rick was probably pretty close in his estimate of 250+ new shooters. Most of those shooters came from local chuck & varmint hunters that wanted to give competition a try, and just guessing there were 20-30 additional "Varmint Match" shooters.

As far as the "valid Factory Class"....... well there's so many different takes on "Factory" class definition it's mind boggling. I have a Ruger 6ppc that is bone stock from the factory except a rifle basix trigger. One month a couple years ago I competed at 3 different ranges and I had to shoot it in custom class, modified, and factory class just because of each club's or shoot's rules. Buying a "Factory" rifle that is competitive AND passes the rules for all disciplines as a factory rifle is next to impossible. That's what I like about UBR. I still have something else that I can bring along and shoot and join the fun. JME. WD

 

[jackie schmidt]

Jackie, I applaud you for bringing it up and speaking to your club members about it.

The best advice I can offer is to hold a few UBR matches, to allow yourself and your members the chance to form their own feelings, for and against the different games, after having actually done both for enough time to get a feel of it. It's different, so I think it's only natural to buck against things that aren't the norm at first. The most obvious thing that jumps out at you is when scoring UBR targets, you're dealing with 11's instead of 10's, for the most part. Not difficult at all...just different. Instead of a 50-5x target, a perfect target in UBR is a 66.
Again, just a small difference but one that tells a lot about how our minds work when we've been doing something differently for a long time. For me when scoring, it's easiest to count the points dropped than to add all the 10's and 11's. Both ways work and you get use to it after a couple or three matches.

Mike, back when the NBRSA adopted VFS as a Registered Competition, we inquired about making the X an "11". There was no interest in doing it then.

We tried, as a provision, to have ties broken by "wipeouts" on lei of the Creedmore. It was tried, and the Organization decided to keep the Creedmore.

So yes, change is difficult. Regardless of how you play it, having targets for different calibers is no small thing. Many shooters still like the sudden death aspect of the current system, and the fact that the drawback in shooting the larger caliber is manefested in more recoil and more difficulty in handling the Rifle at the Bench.

We are now into our shooting season, cabin fever will subside as we try to figure out how to stay clean in a 15 mph switching wind, so this argument will probably continue On.