The Equalizing Scoring Reticle

jackie schmidt

New member
The Equalizing Scoring Reticle was brought up by Andy Taber in another thread. I think this is worth discussing.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/03/new-equalizer-scoring-reticle-for-score-matches/

First, why didn't the UBR just use this instead of coming up with all of the different targets?

Second, how many NBRSA and IBS VFS Shooters would entertain trying this. It looks like a strangely simple solution to the whole caliber difference thing.

If someone was to bring this forth in a Region Meeting for consideration at NBRSA Matches, would the world as we know it end?

I'm intrigued by this. A very logical and low cost solution to the equalization of calibers in "best edge Score shooting"
 
The solution is UBR, And it works. Have you tried it? Or is your mind closed to a better game?

Wayne
 
I'd have a hard time with a shot not touching a dot or a ring scored as such "if" I were using a larger caliber. I get it & think the reticle would certainly do as intended, but feel like the UBR target is the better way.
Keith
 
I'd have a hard time with a shot not touching a dot or a ring scored as such "if" I were using a larger caliber. I get it & think the reticle would certainly do as intended, but feel like the UBR target is the better way.
Keith

Tell that to clubs that have to keep multitudes of different targets on hand to satisfy the variousness calibers. Many clubs who foot the expense might like just using one target.

The Reticle does exactly the same thing as the UBR targets at a far cheaper cost. This innovation is a simple way to make caliber neutral score shooting a viable alternative to the "bigger hole has an advantage concept" of best edge scoring.

It does exactly the same thing it's no addd cost. It also allows to accurately score calibers other than 22. .243, and 308. I fail to see the downside.

My question is, how many shooters would entertain approaching the two major Sanctioning Bodies to adopt this.

As an avid 30 caliber Shooter, I can see the benefits for the Shooting Sports.
 
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I think it would be a great thing for the IBS and NBRSA to adopt and let it run from there.
The market will sort it out. I think it would work
It may just get a lot more competitors into an IBS or NBRSA match
 
I'd have a hard time with a shot not touching a dot or a ring scored as such "if" I were using a larger caliber. I get it & think the reticle would certainly do as intended, but feel like the UBR target is the better way.
Keith

I agree, Keith. Just imagine, the discussions at the wailing wall and the potential scoring protests.
 
I think it would be a great thing for the IBS and NBRSA to adopt and let it run from there.
The market will sort it out. I think it would work
It may just get a lot more competitors into an IBS or NBRSA match

Tom, I can see when years ago, before the technology allowed to produce items such as this, people would balk. But this is 2018. Making devices such as this with modern Cad/ Cam equipment is a quite simple.

Once you shoot a target, it's used up. A Club could make a one time investment in this, and be done with it.

Of course, many will say.....
"But then we would have to check every target. We have to do that at Group Matches now.

The main aim is to get the NBRSA and IBS to recognize the concept of Score Shooting where all calibers can be used with no h favoring one or the other.
 
First, why didn't the UBR just use this instead of coming up with all of the different targets?

"



Respectfully as I can, Jackie...UBR came along years before the reticle. It is the reason behind the reticle, not the other way around.
When UBR came about, there was no such reticle but, when the notion of a caliber neutral score game was brought up, there was a lot of discussion and a lot of ridicule. There was also opportunity!

The question should not be, "why didn't UBR use this reticle", but rather, why didn't NBRSA or IBS listen and take advantage or their opportunity then. Why didn't they use this reticle?

Now, there is UBR.--Mike
 
Respectfully as I can, Jackie...UBR came along years before the reticle. It is the reason behind the reticle, not the other way around.
When UBR came about, there was no such reticle but, when the notion of a caliber neutral score game was brought up, there was a lot of discussion and a lot of ridicule. There was also opportunity!

The question should not be, "why didn't UBR use this reticle", but rather, why didn't NBRSA or IBS listen and take advantage or their opportunity then. Why didn't they use this reticle?

Now, there is UBR.--Mike

Mike, that is the purpose of the discussion, to see if it would be worth approaching the NBRSA and IBS to adopt a bullet neutral scoring system.

"We have always done it this way" is a tried and proven formula for declining attendance and membership. Arriving at a way to allow every caliber to play on an equal field with the least amount of hassle to Clubs an Sanctioning Bodies would seem like a positive step.

A lot of shooters will counter with the argument that there is nothing broke about the current system. Nothing broke except the declining interest in extreme accuracy shooting.
 
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Not trying to take anything away from UBR. They have done a really good job of putting their program together, in the face of what I remember from the time, as getting a lot of ridicule for proposing a caliber neutral target. The reticle would allow a smaller club access to this game for a minimal cost. I purchase the targets for our clubs 100 yard score matches and they are not cheap. Especially shipping.

I would like to throw another thought into this process of the 30 caliber " advantage". I purchased one of these multi caliber reticles about three years ago and have used it to evaluate my own targets after a match. I shoot a 6mm bullet in score matches and was curious what would have happened had I been shooting a 30. In the years that I have done this about the best I would have improved my score was to pick up a few more x's along the way. I've never dropped a point that this scoring advantage would have helped. My biggest handicap is still reading and interpretting conditions.

Most people shooting a 6mm in short range Benchrest are shooting a bullet in the 65gr range while the people shooting a 30 are using a bullet around 125gr. I think the extra weight is a far bigger advantage than what is gained by the radius difference.
 
Not trying to take anything away from UBR. They have done a really good job of putting their program together, in the face of what I remember from the time, as getting a lot of ridicule for proposing a caliber neutral target. The reticle would allow a smaller club access to this game for a minimal cost. I purchase the targets for our clubs 100 yard score matches and they are not cheap. Especially shipping.

I would like to throw another thought into this process of the 30 caliber " advantage". I purchased one of these multi caliber reticles about three years ago and have used it to evaluate my own targets after a match. I shoot a 6mm bullet in score matches and was curious what would have happened had I been shooting a 30. In the years that I have done this about the best I would have improved my score was to pick up a few more x's along the way. I've never dropped a point that this scoring advantage would have helped. My biggest handicap is still reading and interpretting conditions.

Most people shooting a 6mm in short range Benchrest are shooting a bullet in the 65gr range while the people shooting a 30 are using a bullet around 125gr. I think the extra weight is a far bigger advantage than what is gained by the radius difference.

Andy, you hit on something there. The dot is where the 30 really has a significant advantage. As the rings get larger, the percentage of said advantage drops drastically. This is where the 11 point system of UBR is a big difference over simply using a different reticle.
 
Mike, that is the purpose of the discussion, to see if it would be worth approaching the NBRSA and IBS to adopt a bullet neutral scoring system.

"We have always done it this way" is a tried and proven formula for declining attendance and membership. Arriving at a way to allow every caliber to play on an equal field with the least amount of hassle to Clubs an Sanctioning Bodies would seem like a positive step.

A lot of shooters will counter with the argument that there is nothing broke about the current system. Nothing broke except the declining interest in extreme accuracy shooting.

I admire you for at least thinking about it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

But, as I just alluded to in my post to Andy, the caliber neutral aspect is only part of why the UBR system works so well. The 11 point system gives teeth to it. In score, there is a larger advantage to the 30 on the dot, moreso than the other scoring rings. This is more difficult to explain than the caliber neutral aspect but it is the case, IMO. The caliber neutral scoring and the 11 point system fit hand in hand.

UBR was and is a well thought out game, IMO. Why not give it a try instead of reinventing either other organization?
 
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What else are we going to do till the snow melts?

I'm gonna load ammo and get ready for a match. Oliver's link explains what I just said pretty well. It's worth a look if you are open to caliber neutral, or just want to see how it works.

It appears to simply be unbiased arithmetic...with pictures.
Lol!
 
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Im not a fan

of reticles. I believe they leave too much interpretation to the person using them. I have seen them mis-used enough to not be a fan. ARA and IR 50/50 currently have the best scoring system out there. A simple plug and a magnifier to look at the plug through. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

Pete
 
of reticles. I believe they leave too much interpretation to the person using them. I have seen them mis-used enough to not be a fan. ARA and IR 50/50 currently have the best scoring system out there. A simple plug and a magnifier to look at the plug through. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

Pete

Pete, I really like their electronic scoring better than any. Right or wrong, at least it's consistent. I don't think it's perfect but is probably better than either a plug or reticle, JMO, though.

It'd be tough and expensive to bring it to centerfire score matches, as the targets are so large, it'd take a large and expensive scanner at each range.
 
I'm gonna load ammo and get ready for a match. Oliver's link explains what I just said pretty well. It's worth a look if you are open to caliber neutral, or just want to see how it works.

It appears to simply be unbiased arithmetic...with pictures.
Lol!

We have our first NBRSA VFS Match in Lake Charles tomorrow. I have to get up at 3:00 AM.

I will ask everybody what they think. UBR, Equalized Soring Reticle, or just leave things as they are.
 
of reticles. I believe they leave too much interpretation to the person using them. I have seen them mis-used enough to not be a fan. ARA and IR 50/50 currently have the best scoring system out there. A simple plug and a magnifier to look at the plug through. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

Pete

Pete, $10 allows a shooter to challenge any of their scores. If the score is changed for the better, you get it back.
 
We have our first NBRSA VFS Match in Lake Charles tomorrow. I have to get up at 3:00 AM.

I will ask everybody what they think. UBR, Equalized Soring Reticle, or just leave things as they are.

You're a smart man, Jackie. I'm sure you can figure out the best way to present it.
I'd simply ask if they'd be willing to try it a time or two before deciding. Dan Blair has made the trek from your neighborhood to come shoot, i think three UBR Nationals with us. He'd be a good one to talk to about it. It's a long way for him to come here and he's done it 3 times, at least! That says a lot.
Thank you, Jackie.
 
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Jackie,
You asked about a scoring reticle and why UBR didn’t use it in the beginning. Mike Ezell gave you an answer. It wasn’t available is probably the correct answer, but even if it were I don’t know that Danny would have chosen to use it. I’ve gotten to know him fairly well over the past 15 years and I doubt he would have.
For the past seven years I’ve confident in saying I’ve run more UBR matches, shot more UBR matches & scored more targets than anyone else. For six of those seven years I ran a match every month at the Gallatin Gun Club, usually shot in two classes, scored the majority of targets and entered most of them in the computer. I’m not bragging or complaining, I’m just saying I know what I’m talking about. The scoring reticle would be an inferior substitute for a real, printed target. By using two scoring rings instead of one you double the potential errors and disagreements. On many targets we already need a magnifier. A multi-ring reticle would only make this worse. Also, there is no reason for it. The overwhelming majority of shooters will use the three popular match bullets -224, 243 & 308. You seem to be under the impression that stocking three caliber targets is a big deal. Trust me, it isn’t. BTW- I just looked at the National Target Co and IBS targets. It says you are paying $23 per 100 for 100 yard VFS targets and $26 per 100 for 200 yard VFS targets. Allowing for 5 of each for a 100/200 yard agg, if my math is correct, that’s $2.45. The total cost for a UBR 100/200 Agg is less than $2.00. It’s just as easy to stock all the caliber targets as to stock for IBS. You can argue that, but remember, I’ve done it for seven years. I know what I’m talking about…….been there & done that. Also, IME- the plug is absolutely the worst scoring choice. With a close shot every time someone looks at it the hole gets a tiny bit larger and so more difficult to score correctly. It’s worse than worthless.
As to whether you should adopt a caliber neutral target, I really can’t say. That’s up to the members of the NBRSA. First, I seriously doubt that you will get enough members to vote for a change. Humanoids as a rule, don’t like change. Second, it probably wouldn’t change much in regard to the growth of the organization. The neutral targets that UBR uses are only part of a system that is working for us. The second part is the scoring system that doesn’t penalize the shooter for shooting a “9”. The third and in my experience the most important part is the four class structure. This had given match directors like myself the freedom to invite anyone who wants to shoot the opportunity without the requirement of a very expensive custom rifle and optics. I can tell the interested party to show up and I will have a class for him to shoot. We have a valid Factory Class that has worked well with little or no cheating, a Modified Class that allows a shooter to pull that old Remington benchrest rifle from the back of the safe and compete, a strong Custom Class that we are all familiar with and an Unlimited Class that includes rail guns if one chooses.
The majority of our shooters did not come from other organizations. They are new to the sport. Many of those who begin in Factory Class choose to stay with it, although in my opinion it is the most expensive and difficult class in which to be consistently competitive.

I wish you luck with whatever you do with the reticle and with growing the NBRSA.

Rick
 
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