Technical Series: Tuning

E

edgerat

New member
Since the other thread has started to go this way and there are several methods of tuning. Let's here it! If anyone of you mentions the phrase, "my gun would wait for me", I will drive to your house and kick you in the shins. :cool:


Now, Hopewell method, does it work? Two people that I respect very much in this game have told me that once you get a rifle tuned you should not have to ever touch the tuner again.
 
Hmmmm.......AIUI tuning is all about harmonics. Harmonics is all about vibration and vibration is all about speed and pressure when it comes to .22rf. Therefore change the speed, change the pressure , change the vibration , change the harmonics, change the tuner?

A well set up tuner reduces the amount of harmonic deviation between ammunition, pressure etc but there is still a deviation. Unfortunately I'm not a proficient enough BR shooter to be able to register the sometimes minute adjustments that might be necessary. I think that might be the case with many of us. Hence the no need to re-tune philosophy/advice.

Or am I talking out of my hat?:(
 
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After the initial tuning of my heavy gun after being re-barreled, I have not had to touch the tuner. Not even when I went from shooting at 50 yards in our IR50/50 matches to 25M at the Worlds last month. I shoot ammo with speeds ranging from 1049 to 1069 and have not felt the need to touch that dial. Think about today's sporters with the knob on the end that the gunsmith tunes. You can't change those from one lot to another and yet, they are putting up some amazing scores these days. Of course, it may be a matter of when we test ammo we are selecting ammo that shoots well at our tunings. But that's not a bad way of going about it. If for every lot of ammo I was testing I had to twist the tuner, it would be an expensive and time consuming test. If you tune with known good/great ammo, and don't touch it, and later test some lots and again find a good/great lot, you'll have a measure of confidence. Or at least I do. Regarding minute adjustments - has anyone found a click or two on their tuner making any significant difference? I haven't.
 
Bill,

What did you have to do to get it tuned? I should have been more specific on this. BC says he rings his barrels and then he knows how much to stick on there. I bought a tuned rifle so, I don't have the "fun" of learning how to tune a rifle just yet :)

Isaac
 
Bill B said:
After the initial tuning of my heavy gun after being re-barreled, I have not had to touch the tuner. Not even when I went from shooting at 50 yards in our IR50/50 matches to 25M at the Worlds last month. I shoot ammo with speeds ranging from 1049 to 1069 and have not felt the need to touch that dial. Think about today's sporters with the knob on the end that the gunsmith tunes. You can't change those from one lot to another and yet, they are putting up some amazing scores these days. Of course, it may be a matter of when we test ammo we are selecting ammo that shoots well at our tunings. But that's not a bad way of going about it. If for every lot of ammo I was testing I had to twist the tuner, it would be an expensive and time consuming test. If you tune with known good/great ammo, and don't touch it, and later test some lots and again find a good/great lot, you'll have a measure of confidence. Or at least I do. Regarding minute adjustments - has anyone found a click or two on their tuner making any significant difference? I haven't.
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Bill, you’ve touched on a point that’s interesting me at the moment.

I’ve been to Eley several times and have always removed the tuner for testing, working on the assumption that ammo shooting the smallest, roundest group with a naked barrel can be improved when later fitting the tuner and dialling it in.

Just seemed to me that by testing with the tuner fitted you are applying an external influence on the ammo, over and above that of the naked rifle.

Have you tried it both ways and found the method with the tuner fitted while testing to be the best?

Brian
 
AIUI The tuner is there to round out the muzzle osculations, that all barrels have to some degree. I think some give this the term a "stopped muzzle", which a physical impossibility.

Therefore testing with a tuner on only helps the negate its reason for being fitted in the first place.
It stands to reason that the ammunition that produces the smallest deviation on a naked barrel will be the easiest and best to set the tuner to work on. I'm not saying you couldn't produce as good a result with a batch of ammunition that gave you a larger deviation with a naked barrel, but why give yourself that initial handicap. Unless you particularly enjoy the challenge.
 
Brian,

I shoot my rifle in competition with a tuner on, so I test ammo with the tuner on. I want to see what the ammo will do with the rifle in the configuration that I'll be shooting it. I haven't tested it both ways, but I would not assume the ammo that shot best in a naked barrel would shoot best with a tuner on. It may be the case, but why do all that work to test that theory when I can just leave the tuner on and concentrate on finding the ammo that will shoot well that way. I don't have my gunsmith lop off the non-adustable tuner mass at the end of my sporter to test ammo, I test it with the "tuner" on. I've shot enough great lots of ammo that I know how my rifle should shoot with good ammo. If it doesn't perform, I just keep looking. It has not been all that hard finding lots that my rifles love.

Edgerat, to tune I start off with just a Harrells with no added weight and start with the tuner all the way in and just start shooting and twisting. I pretty much use the Hopewell Method. If the groups are pretty good at the start I'll just turn it out a full turn at a time and then narrow it down to half and then quarter turns. If the groups are not good at the lowest setting, I'll turn it out at least 4 turns and try that etc. If I can't find a spot with the bare tuner, then add weight in the smallest increments I can and keep testing.
 
Thanks Bill, you make a good point. My good buddy John F reckons you know your stuff so I’ll give your method a try when I’m down testing at Bisley the week after next.

Just one more question if I may – in the main do you use any weights on your tuner or have you been able to find the sweet spot without the need for these? Or indeed does it vary from barrel to barrel?

Brian
 
Brian, I currently have just a bare Harrells tuner on my 24" .875 straight barrel. The tuner is only on 75 so it didn't take too long for me to find the sweet spot. It shot so well and was so wind tolerant that I didn't bother playing around with any extra weight. When it's good - it's good. In the past I have added weight to the Harrells trying to get a different barrel to shoot well, but it never quite got to where I knew it should be. The barrel or chamber (or both) was flawed. When Gordon Eck put this barrel on, it was way better from the start. He was the one who suggested that I try tuning it first with as little weight as possible. I'm flattered that John F respects my opinion. When you see him, say hi for me.
 
Thanks again Bill, some very useful information there. I have a 25” .905 Broughton 4c, it’s good, but it’s just not quite there yet. Will follow your suggestions and see if we can’t make a shooter out of it.

No problem, next time I see John I’ll be happy to flatten him for you :D

Brian
 
Brian,
I’m with Bill and think you need to test with the tuner on. A simple test based on your trips to Eley, have you ever tested a bare gun and had good results and then when you get home put the gun together and find the results no so good??

Last year I did some factory testing and even put a scope on it, when the ammo arrived I found I needed to adjust the tuner a couple of clicks and the same lot shot well in 2 other barrels I have, I was laughing.

Peter
RWS.jpg
 
Correction

I tried something new this morning. I took 4 different speeds of ammo, ( Eley Match & Team ), ranging from 1031 to 1071,and shot four shots at each setting 100, 125, 150, 175, and so forth up to the 350 setting. Bare tuner no weights. It surprised me that on several setting the groups were very small and round. Inless than 250 rounds, I found 3 spots that I think I can work with. I then selected one of the best sweet spots, and added the Pappas Noodle. I tried both the long and the short. Target was an RBA, so it's too large to scan, but I will try to take a photo and attach. Action was the new Falcon with the 6 o'clock FP, Border Cut Rifle Barrel. I had tried ringing the barrel and it told me to use a total of 20 oz of weight including the tuner. It did not shoot that great. That's why I tried this new procedure.
Falcon_Test.jpg

Sighters at the bottom of the target were my final setting. All five sighters were shot with the setting. and the four different lots. The POA, was the dot in the middle. The wind was switching from 11 to 2 o'clock. A note about the photo. I rotated it for better veiwing. That's why the vertical was hard to pick up for some.
 
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RBD said:
Liked the bit about "muzzle osculations," Hambone-

LOL.

RBD
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That will teach me to check the spell checker. Ha!

I think I'll leave it as is rather than go and edit it. It wouldn't be the same...would it. LOL
 
Fred

Setting for 9,14 and 23 look good . 23 looks to be a hummer!
 
Bill B said:
Brian,

I shoot my rifle in competition with a tuner on, so I test ammo with the tuner on. I want to see what the ammo will do with the rifle in the configuration that I'll be shooting it. I haven't tested it both ways, but I would not assume the ammo that shot best in a naked barrel would shoot best with a tuner on. It may be the case, but why do all that work to test that theory when I can just leave the tuner on and concentrate on finding the ammo that will shoot well that way. I don't have my gunsmith lop off the non-adustable tuner mass at the end of my sporter to test ammo, I test it with the "tuner" on. I've shot enough great lots of ammo that I know how my rifle should shoot with good ammo. If it doesn't perform, I just keep looking. It has not been all that hard finding lots that my rifles love.

Edgerat, to tune I start off with just a Harrells with no added weight and start with the tuner all the way in and just start shooting and twisting. I pretty much use the Hopewell Method. If the groups are pretty good at the start I'll just turn it out a full turn at a time and then narrow it down to half and then quarter turns. If the groups are not good at the lowest setting, I'll turn it out at least 4 turns and try that etc. If I can't find a spot with the bare tuner, then add weight in the smallest increments I can and keep testing.
Click to expand...

Bill

Obviously if the tuners a permanent fixture as in the Sporter there only one way to go.

My premise for testing with out a tuner in the first place is that given the function of the tuner is to tune the rifle. i.e. Tune out the variables,
Testing with out it fitted allows for the shooter to ascertain what batch works best therefore starting off on the front foot when the tuner is fitted onto the whole assembled rig.

But if as you say you've found it to be otherwise ....... it just goes to show its not over until the fat blonde sings.

I'm sure the science/engineering guys could explain why.
 
Thanks Fred J

This was good and informative input. One question though, after You put on the "noodles" did You do any adjustments on the noodle only or did You just put them on. I have done some similar tests but my problem is that when I find the best possible "sweetspot" it won´t stay there for long. Seems as my barrel gets worse the warmer it becomes
Thanks for the sharing:)
 
Yes I’m convinced Peter, at least enough to give it a try in a few days’ time. I plan to use the Pappas rest I have as the test bed so it will be tuner, scope, recoil et all. A little different from the locked solid approach at Eley.

I don’t know if that was the same ammo of Fred’s that shot target 23 and the sighter below it, but if I come up with something like that I’ll re-mortgage house and buy every round in existence.

Brian
 
Finshooter.
The only thing I adjusted, was the weight on the Long Noodle. Pappas, suggests three different locations. The second one , is responsible for the three sighters on the right at the bottom. Now to try it out in a match.
 
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