Super Shoot and small groups

Wilbur,
I'm pretty sure we can get you a golf cart so you can cruise around in style. That's what a lot of the less spunky fellers do. As to the will to win, come on now, you telling me that if the rifle was shooting good you would just go through the motions??? Bullcrap!
So the issue is a good barrel and bullets for that great old Panda of yours. :cool:
 
I cant see why people are so hung up on this issue ?, it’s a land of choice for the most part, If one is happy with the scope on there rifle regardless of brand,then why switch?. If a company had nothing but a bad product to sell, the company would have gone broke a long time ago.. There are good and bad in all things to my thinking
 
Yeah, I suppose...

I really need to go shoot a few targets, see what I would need to win, and go from there. That old Panda might still be good enough but I doubt it. It shot well enough, once, to win this years Super Shoot but I don't know what changed to make the winning aggs (in general) as small as they are now.

Perhaps I should go look around....
 
L. Costa said:
Wilbur,
I'm pretty sure we can get you a golf cart so you can cruise around in style. That's what a lot of the less spunky fellers do. As to the will to win, come on now, you telling me that if the rifle was shooting good you would just go through the motions??? Bullcrap!
So the issue is a good barrel and bullets for that great old Panda of yours. :cool:
Click to expand...

Less spunky air we?? Multiply where I was from where youns' was by about 80 times, then what?

Wilbur, the 2000 Super Shoot, your scores looked mighty good. Remember when you made me weigh the rifles of some 350 shooters? What a heinous plan to get that done!
 
"I've seen March's go back for problems. And it wasn't pretty. And it wasn't quick. And it wasn't free.
There are even folks on this forum who've had March's go bad, and they were ridiculed like sub-humans for even suggesting that their scope may be having issues."

Please tell me someone who was charged for a March Repair, I do all the billing for March repair and the only billing we have done is when a customer request a reticle change and we had to charge several people for bent scope tubes. NO ONE has been charged for anything else. Also all scopes are returned from Japan in three weeks or less. So please tell me anyone that had to wait and pay for a supposed problem with a March. You quote above is total BS. I would also like to know when someone got ridiculed for talking about possible March problem. It sure did not come from Kelbly's. As I said March Scopes are not perfect but their problems from factory are less than 3%.

Quotes like above are the reason people will not try a product and that quote is totally wrong. I would love to hear from someone that was charged to get their March Scope fixed or took a long time for it to be serviced. 90% of all returned March Scopes were found to have no problem, Deon still replaces all internal parts just to make sure all is correct. I really do not think you can ask for better than that, as it is quite expansive to remove the lens system once installed.

Jim
 
I bought a March 50 while at the Super Shoot. 300 bucks off. Paid the same as I have seen some go for used, thanks Jim. As far as price I have a Leupold Comp 45 paid 1200 and nothing but problems, thinking about the Tucker mod, I have 2 Sightrons at 500 each worse problems. I quess with all the money it takes to do this sport, a 600 bucks extra for top line scope with the reputation of holding MOA is a bargain.
Bill
 
Well said Trout!

In Nov of last year I sent three 36x leupould scopes in for repair. They were not holding point of aim. I was told one of the scopes could not be repaired and would be replaced with a new competition series. That's great service, but it took nearly six months to the day to get the scope. I take that scope put it on a rifle and within a week it's not holding point of aim. It's also the worse glass I've ever seen in a leupold. It is unbelievably cloudy. So back it goes! Of the other two scopes one is great and working well. The other still has the same issues. Leupolds are great when they work and when you get a good one hang on to it. I'm not knocking leupold I have a safe full of them. But it is what it is.

As for March scopes I own 4 of them. I have not had an ounce of trouble out of any of them. Think about this.... You cannot introduce a new product into the market place Unless there is a need. This is especially true when it commands a premium price tag. The March scopes have a far superior track record for holding point of aim. That's Just the way it is.

In this thread there are three Hall of Fame shooters saying the same thing. I understand a March scope isn't for everyone, but they are a quality scope.

Bart Sauter
 
March Customer Service

Did a forum search. Found this old Post.


I had a similar experience as yours. My March scope was dropped,while on the gun. It took a pretty good whack on the left side. It appeared to be OK from what I could determine from target examination. I sent it back to Deon Optical Inc, Nagano-Ken,Japan , just to make sure.

They did their routine inspection,which includes a complete scope disassembly(On every returned scope) and installation of new internal components. I've been told that when they disassembled the scope, some of the old parts are not reusable. Makes sense to me.

They e-mailed a picture of my scope,with the internals removed and the new parts that were replaced. I could see the serial number on the empty tube of my March Scope. I assume they purposely showed the serial# as proof of their inspection. They didn't find a problem with my scope.

I have sent several scopes back to US manufacturers for repairs in the past.but I have never seen photographs of the internal components. I'll take visual aids over word of mouth any day. I got a five year warranty on my March Scope. Seems kinda limited when you compare it to another manufacturer. But,you only get a three year limited warranty on a brand new $200,000.00 Ferrari. Quality comes at a price.

I mailed the scope on May 12,2012 and got it back May 30,2012. Now that's service in my book. The scope works fine. The shooter,now that's another story.

Glenn
 
At least you guys have a 50X March scope, EH!!!! I know Jim is going to kill me next time he sees me, but that will be next year and he will have forgot by then, (snigger, snigger):):):)
 
Dam!! I forgot, I have a Stock on order, Jim, oh buddy, oh Pal, I did not write the last comment, EH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rolleyes:
 
r44astro said:
I have a Leupold Comp 45 paid 1200 and nothing but problems,
Click to expand...


Bart said:
In Nov of last year I sent three 36x leupould scopes in for repair. They were not holding point of aim.
Click to expand...

How do y'all determine you've got a scope problem, or that the scope is not holing POA? Is something so obvious that "stray" holes can't be attributed to something else?
 
Hunter,

It depends with some scopes its obvious. The thing just comes unraveled and its shooting shots all over the target. Change out the scope and the rifle starts shooting dots. Put the old scope on and you’re shooting all over the target again.

Another method is a Hood scope checker. It’s a mount that holds two scopes side by side that can be mounted on your rifle. Adjust both to the same spot and shoot. After firing if both aren’t pointing to the same spot you have a problem. Most of the time I use a Locked/Glued scope as the standard.

Before the IBS Nationals last year I was testing a new rifle that Billy Stevens built for me. Because of weight limitations I had to use a 36 power leupold. While Billy and I were testing at 100 yards in mild conditions the gun would shoot two shots in a hole and then pitch one up and left out of the group (with paper). After it did this about four times we said the scope must be bad. Changed out the scope and it literally started shooting back to back zeros. That combination won a yardage, a grand aggregate and the 2 Gun at the Nationals.

For a new shooter it would be hard to figure out unless it just came apart hard.


Bart
 
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To me, March is the Best for precision shooting!
It's also light, great optics & reticle choices, price is also "correct" (i.e. not really expensive compared to some other optics such as the Swaro, S&B, Zeiss). *Note: I've seen through many.
They also track great & look nice to my eyes. I can't ask for more for a precision purpose scope.

And I don't think Jim is "arrogant" with his statement! He tells what he believes, and to me it's True.
As why there weren't many March in the Top 20 SS-2014, my logic is: quantity (i.e. the Leo) does not necessarily mean it's the best. It's just because used by many & 'fortunately' used by some of the top dogs. --- Give the top dogs the March it will be a different story!
It could also be different if March is made in the USA.

Don't get me wrong, I also like the Leupold, NF, Sightron SIII, Swaro, S&B, Zeiss Hensoldt, etc. But March is my pick for BR or precision shooting!

Just my 2 cents, (if you don't agree with me just ignore my post!)
seb.
 
Bart said:
Hunter,

It depends with some scopes its obvious. The thing just comes unraveled and its shooting shots all over the target. Change out the scope and the rifle starts shooting dots. Put the old scope on and you’re shooting all over the target again.

Another method is a Hood scope checker. It’s a mount that holds two scopes side by side that can be mounted on your rifle. Adjust both to the same spot and shoot. After firing if both aren’t pointing to the same spot you have a problem. Most of the time I use a Locked/Glued scope as the standard.

Before the IBS Nationals last year I was testing a new rifle that Billy’s Stevens Built for me. Because of weight limitations I had to use a 36 power leupold. While Billy and I were testing at 100 yards in mild conditions the gun would shoot two shots in a hole and then pitch one up and left out of the group (with paper). After it did this about four times we said the scope must be bad. Changed out the scope and it literally started shooting back to back zeros. That combination won a yardage, a grand aggregate and the 2 Gun at the Nationals.

For a new shooter it would be hard to figure out unless it just came apart hard.


Bart
Click to expand...


By experience - would a bad scope shoot an occasional good group of 5 shoots? Or will "every" group be ruined?
 
HopeToBe said:
By experience - would a bad scope shoot an occasional good group of 5 shoots? Or will "every" group be ruined?
Click to expand...

Yes, a scope that moves around will allow (or create) a very good group now and then. That's why folks continue to use them!

Edited to add: That's more a problem than some realize. Determine if it's the scope or the rifle and fix what's broke. It's sort of an "effort" to figure out which is broke - especially if they're both broke!!! Bottom line is that if you are not shooting competively it's not likely that you don't know how to shoot.
 
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What gripes me about Jim's post is that it is, quite simply, advertising. There is a mechanism for that already.

Addendum: I have a March and really like it.
 
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Wilbur said:
Bottom line is that if you are not shooting competively it's not likely that you don't know how to shoot.
Click to expand...

Point taken!


What I am looking for is more of a reflection of your "every now and then" in order to indicate a broken scope. I believe a broken scope will never create a good agg, despite allowing some the groups in the agg to be great?

Sorry for hijacking the tread.
 
I've got to address this comment to aka Hunter....

I don't know if you shoot competitive Bench Rest and I don't know how to say this so it makes sense but BART CAN SHOOT!

I'm not being froofy here but Bart prolly don't NEED no Scope Checker....

I'll tell you how this happened with me, I was shooting with a BR shooter named Del Bishop and he peeked over at my groups as I shot. And he told me stuff about me, about how I shot, how I pulled my trigger, how I held my gun, about my load, my tune and yes even my scope WITHOUT TOUCHING THE RIFLE or even watching me shoot.

Del could freakin' SHOOT.

99.99% of us need scope checkers to see a bad scope. I have one and I need it. If a scope starts to feel funny I use it.

A scope checker will eliminate a lot of "scope problems" for most people.

And I'll give you a liddle alinwa hint for free, ZACKLY what it's worth.... There are a LOT of guns with real, legitimate scope problems..... and perfectly good scopes! Get a really tuned up gun and a small leather mallet and watch what happens when you tap your scope bases around......Get a set of Kokopelli bars and check your alignment, and tap your bases around.....

jus' sayin'


al
 
OK - here's what i'm sayin'

A scope that moves will shoot four threes and a .130 at a hundred yards. The four threes will have most of the shots in a wad. Sure, I've shot that agg with a good scope....which makes it difficult to know what's what. Then, the sad (bad) news comes when you find out that's the best your high priced rifle will shoot - ever.

Check your scope!

Fix your rifle!

OR

Sell both and start over.....
 
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