Stopping the muzzle, Calfee

K

Kathy

Guest
My centerfire friends:

What I'm going to tell you now, I have never related to another human being.

STOPPING THE MUZZLE

When I run my range tests on the guns I build, the first thing I must do is to determine what tuner weight, and position on the barrel, is necessary,to STOP my muzzle, not just slow it down.

I currently use two lots of Eley EPS ammunition, one has a velocity of 1035 FPS, the other has a velocity of 1075 FPS.

I have a slave tuner that I can quickly attach steel rings of various weights to.

I take 50 rounds of each lot number, switch them at random into two empty boxes. In other words I have the two velocities mixed up so I have no idea which I'm loading in the gun.

I have my base tuner set on its mid-point of admustment with no ring weights.

With the target placed at 42 yards I shoot 5 shot groups and increase, or decrease, the tuner weight, until I get the two different velocities printing in the same group. I'm done. MY MUZZLE IS NOW STOPPED. (This test can be done fairly successfully at 50 yards)

I then start testing various lots of ammo for accuracy.

THE TUNER NO LONGER NEEDS ANY ADJUSTING.... NO MATTER WHAT VELOCITY AMMO I'M TESTING, OR, IN WHAT ATMOSPHERIC CONDITIONS.

Sounds too simple don't it.....it's really that simple.

My centerfire friends......I started life as a centerfire benchester....I hope this information helps you folks with the task of developing the proper barrel tuners for your shooting.......

If you need to fool with your tuner, your tuner is not correct for your barrel.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Last edited:
Bill,

If that's all there is to it, you've just created two classes of centerfire shooters: those that listen to you and those that will have to start if they ever want to win again.

You could have saved me several cases of ammo if you had spit that out years ago.
 
To Bill...

I guess then if you and I get on a train traveling north and I jump out and land on some spot, and then when the train is traveling back south you jump out and land on the same spot - this means the train has no motion and has stopped.

I suggest, as one friend to another, that you think before you post. Or better yet give us your definition of the words you use in the post. It may be that we don't understand what you mean by "stopped".
 
Last edited:
Bill

What you need to do now is put together a good 10.5 pound 6PPC, (a real Benchrest Rifle), and repeat you exercise in varing temperature and humidity conditions.
I would suggest you shoot some 5-group aggs at each condition, keeping note of how the groups form, and if the rifle does indeed keep the same agging capability throughout the entire exercise...........jackie
 
Tony C said:
How could one duplicate this type of test with a 30BR or 6PPC, for example? Would it take one number on the measure, one grain of powder, etc.???

Would a simple difference of 50 fps do, or does the increase in pressure and velocity exponentially change things??
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I'm sure the loads would both have to shoot...lowering the load one grain to make the slower load would'nt work if that load wouldn't shoot at least nearly as accurately as the other.

-Dave-:)
 
Kathy said:
THE TUNER NO LONGER NEEDS ANY ADJUSTING.... NO MATTER WHAT VELOCITY AMMO I'M TESTING, OR, IN WHAT ATMOSPHERIC CONDITIONS.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...

No comprende. Back in the mid 90's when Winchester and Browning had the BOSS Shootout I did my part with a Model 70 in .270. I could shrink a 2" group to .300 with the BOSS tuner. If I changed to a different bullet weight/powder charge/velocity the group would open up and would require a different BOSS setting to shrink the group. "Set it and forget it" wouldn't work.
 
GARMASTERS said:
No comprende. Back in the mid 90's when Winchester and Browning had the BOSS Shootout I did my part with a Model 70 in .270. I could shrink a 2" group to .300 with the BOSS tuner. If I changed to a different bullet weight/powder charge/velocity the group would open up and would require a different BOSS setting to shrink the group. "Set it and forget it" wouldn't work.
Click to expand...

According to what Bill has been saying all along, what you experienced with the boss indicates that it isn't heavy enough.

-Dave-:)
 
I guess that the question for the 10 1/2# PPC builder is whether one can go thin enough and long enough with a barrel's contour to match a tuner weight that would be light enough to maintain workable rifle balance and not loose accuracy due to the much greater energy input that a center fire cartridge puts into the system. Has anyone bulit and tested such a rig?
 
Folks have offered barrels and $$ to Mr. Calfee several times before to show us how it is done, but he comes up missing when it is time to "put up or shut up"
 
According to Calfee's theory, once you get the barrel tuned, it doesn't matter what you feed it or where....

Dave Short said:
I'm sure the loads would both have to shoot...lowering the load one grain to make the slower load would'nt work if that load wouldn't shoot at least nearly as accurately as the other.

-Dave-:)
Click to expand...
 
Bullets are a big factor - -

Tony C said:
That's 40 fps range with 1055 mean in a rimfire- so when we boost the fps up to over 3000...

How could one duplicate this type of test with a 30BR or 6PPC, for example? Would it take one number on the measure, one grain of powder, etc.???

Would a simple difference of 50 fps do, or does the increase in pressure and velocity exponentially change things??

Or maybe another way to go about it would simply be to achieve the same amount of difference in the POI on paper as Bill would get with the two different lots of ammo- whether it would be 1/4 inch, 3/8 inch - then factor in 100 yards vs 50?? Then tune.

Mike Ratigan wrote, "I've had combinations that were so good I could not find a tune up. It would shoot at about any powder charge, 51,52, 53, 54 and at any seating depth. Many shooters will have this unique phonomenon once or twice over their shooting careers." Mike thinks that great bullets are responsible, but could it be the elusive hummer barrel that is naturally in tune?

Bill, you keep us thinking.
Click to expand...

After measuring the bearing surface length of quite a few thousand I have come to believe it is the quality of the cores that ultimately determins the quality of how the bullets shoot. I don't know much about the making of bullets but logic sort of dictates that if the cores aren't all exactly the same, the finished bullets won't be, regardless of the jackets. I can't prove this but it is what I belive, as of now.

My first bench rifle had a Bell barrel on it and it would forgive almost any mistake I made in making ammo for it. I have had another brand since that one which was nearly as good but the Bell was a wonder. The ones that won't forgive demand exact seating depth. One must have uniform bearing lenghts to provide exact seating depths the the fussy ones demand.
 
Pete

I haven't made bullets for some time, but I do believe that all of our top bullet makers keep the cores within .1 grn of each other, maybe less. It is a product of precision swaging equipment.......jackie
 
Roy in NC said:
According to Calfee's theory, once you get the barrel tuned, it doesn't matter what you feed it or where....
Click to expand...

Roy,

The rimfire guys still have to use ammo that is competitive...the barrel tuner doesn't make a ho-hum or bad lot of ammo shoot. If this stuff does ever end up working out for our centerfire guns, we'll still have to use loads that will shoot.

I have had a few (well, one absolutely for sure) of the Hummer barrels. The best one would shoot a wider than normal window of powder charge, but it could still be made to go sour if I went way low on the measure. The remarkable thing was the wide range of temperature and humidity my pet load would work perfectly under. The REAL advantage was that it would shoot through darned near anything.......a missed switch or a bad call often cost me almost nothing.

As I see it, in Bill's mind the tuner is supposed to be used to optomize the BARREL tune, which in turn drastically reduces the rifles sensitivity to changing conditions. The load that is used still has to be right.....kind of like testing and choosing rimfire ammo. Bill, please forgive me if I've misunderstood anything as I've summarized your statements.

I'm rather skeptical that all of the rimfire "facts" can be applied to the centerfire rifles. No matter how I feel about any of this, I must admit that Bill has pulled ahead of the rest of the rimfire gunsmiths to a degree that no one has paralleled in the centerfire realm.

-Dave-:)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Boyd

My Tinker Toy rifle has a looooong wheelbase. It might work with a really heavy tuner if someone can tell me just how heavy for a certain contour barrel. I've never met a gadget or an experiment that I didn't like. If the weight isn't too excessive I could add weight to my current tuner.


Shelley
 
THis may be so - -

jackie schmidt said:
I haven't made bullets for some time, but I do believe that all of our top bullet makers keep the cores within .1 grn of each other, maybe less. It is a product of precision swaging equipment.......jackie
Click to expand...

But, the shape of the core, in terms of the length of the bearing surface could still differ and be the same weight, having a variation in the cone or nose of the core.

I don't have enough knowledge of the process to even imagine how it all works but someting causes differences in bearing surface lengths. Perhaps it is the ammt of lube used. Perhaps it is a difference in the hardness of the lead wire used. Perhaps it is simply different strokes but something makes them differ.

Some lots of bullets differ very little but some have wide swings in bearing surface length. Most of the bullets in any lot will be very near to each other BUT, the 25 or so in 1000 that are way off will or can wreck a person't day or weekend.
 
Last edited:
pete

There is probably less than .0005 difference in the lengths of swaged cores out of the same lot. The proccess just about guarantees this.
The core is literally swaged into a chamber, (under thousands of pounds of pressure), and the excess squeezed away. Since lead is a dead material, the cores come out exactly the shape of the swaging die chamber.
Of course, nothing is perfect. But making cores that are all exact in the same setting is really not that big of a feat........jackie
 
Last edited:
Friend Dave Short

Friend Dave:

I quote from you: "As I see it, in Bill's mind the tuner is supposed to be used to optomize the BARREL tune, which in turn drastically reduces the rifles sensitivity to changing conditions. The load that is used still has to be right.....kind of like testing and choosing rimfire ammo. Bill, please forgive me if I've misunderstood anything as I've summarized your statements."

Friend Dave. nothing to forgive my friend, you stated it better than I did...

Dave, any weight added to the muzzle of a rifle barrel will slow down muzzle oscillations......but....if the muzzle is not completely stopped, we're still handicapped by having to attempt to catch the muzzle oscillations in the same place, as the bullet exits the crown, shot to shot, for killer accuracy.......that's what we've always done before tuners......

A tuner of the proper weight and position, for the physical size of the barrel, will completely stop the muzzle oscillations.....IT ABSOLUTELY WILL.

Will what I've discovered about tuners and rimfire barrels apply to centerfire?
Yes sir they will. They would apply to the 16 inch guns on the Battleship Missouri.

My centerfire friends: Why would anyone limit themselves to just slowing down muzzle oscillations, when, with a little more effort, they can completley STOP them?

Your friend, Bill Calfee
 
Thank you, Bill

Kathy said:
My centerfire friends:

What I'm going to tell you now, I have never related to another human being.

STOPPING THE MUZZLE

When I run my range tests on the guns I build, the first thing I must do is to determine what tuner weight, and position on the barrel, is necessary,to STOP my muzzle, not just slow it down.

I currently use two lots of Eley EPS ammunition, one has a velocity of 1035 FPS, the other has a velocity of 1075 FPS.

I have a slave tuner that I can quickly attach steel rings of various weights to.

I take 50 rounds of each lot number, switch them at random into two empty boxes. In other words I have the two velocities mixed up so I have no idea which I'm loading in the gun.

I have my base tuner set on its mid-point of admustment with no ring weights.

I shoot 5 shot groups and increase, or decrease, the tuner weight, until I get the two different velocities printing in the same group. I'm done. MY MUZZLE IS NOW STOPPED.

I then start testing various lots of ammo for accuracy.

THE TUNER NO LONGER NEEDS ANY ADJUSTING.... NO MATTER WHAT VELOCITY AMMO I'M TESTING, OR, IN WHAT ATMOSPHERIC CONDITIONS.

Sounds too simple don't it.....it's really that simple.

My centerfire friends......I started life as a centerfire benchester....I hope this information helps you folks with the task of developing the proper barrel tuners for your shooting.......

If you need to fool with your tuner, your tuner is not correct for your barrel.

Your friend, Bill Calfee
Click to expand...


Bill, thank you for sharing that with us. I know it came straight from your heart and that it was not easy for you to divulge that information. I hope others realize the significance of your contributions. One does not achieve your level of credibility without knowing exactly what he is talking about. I have enjoyed the correspondence we have shared and look forward to meeting you in person.

I'm sure you are absolutely correct in what you say as it pertains to rimfire, but at this point, I am not convinced that it also applies to centerfire; however, I'm remaining open minded and listening carefully to everything you say. The only way to prove whether or not your type of device will work with centerfire is to build one and test it. I hope you will do just that.

Since your type tuner weighs considerably more than mine, I believe it would be best to experiment with a heavy varmint (13.5 lb) rifle instead of a light varmint or sporter, which is restricted to 10.5 lbs. I'm sure there are many who would be willing to donate money, time, and/or components to such an experiment; I know I would.

Think about it and try to come up with a plan that will be beneficial to one and all and we will continue 'on down the road.' :D :D

Sincerely and with best regards

Gene Beggs
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top