G
garrisone
Guest
Thank you for that information. Had I been able to find Bill Calfee"s book I would have already had the information you were so kind to send. Thank you . garrisone.
Thank you for that information. Had I been able to find Bill Calfee"s book I would have already had the information you were so kind to send. Thank you . garrisone.
Boyd Allen
Active member
Tim,
I am curious about which of the pieced would damage a barrel, the soft lead slug,k the totally coated rod with tape around the end, the plastic hammer or the small wood dowel use to start the slug with, and back up the slug from the breach when lightly tapping it with the end of the rod to expand it to the bore if needed? It seems to me that I gained a lot of useful information from what I did, and when I had finished the resulting work, it shot better. If it had not been a marginal barrel that would have otherwise been simply replaced, I probably would not have attempted what I did, but it was, I did, and it worked. I learned what I needed to know.
Boyd
I am curious about which of the pieced would damage a barrel, the soft lead slug,k the totally coated rod with tape around the end, the plastic hammer or the small wood dowel use to start the slug with, and back up the slug from the breach when lightly tapping it with the end of the rod to expand it to the bore if needed? It seems to me that I gained a lot of useful information from what I did, and when I had finished the resulting work, it shot better. If it had not been a marginal barrel that would have otherwise been simply replaced, I probably would not have attempted what I did, but it was, I did, and it worked. I learned what I needed to know.
Boyd
Here's one supplier, there are three others I know of. I've also used 22 bullets and cast bullets.
http://www.meisterbullets.com/slugyourbarrelsdetails.asp
I recently bought some bags of these
http://www.neconos.com/category/Accuracy-enhancement-23
(scroll down to second from bottom, little bags of slugs) and am using them WITHOUT the lapping compound, for measuring, not for lapping.
One of the things I haven't seen mentioned (Altho Boyd touched on it) is the need to "tap up" or upset the slugs into the grooves. I've always used brass rods for this but I've been described as "anal"
WhatEVER....
LOL
al
http://www.meisterbullets.com/slugyourbarrelsdetails.asp
I recently bought some bags of these
http://www.neconos.com/category/Accuracy-enhancement-23
(scroll down to second from bottom, little bags of slugs) and am using them WITHOUT the lapping compound, for measuring, not for lapping.
One of the things I haven't seen mentioned (Altho Boyd touched on it) is the need to "tap up" or upset the slugs into the grooves. I've always used brass rods for this but I've been described as "anal"
WhatEVER....
LOL
al
Well perhaps I'm more apprehensive about running a rod even slowly through the crown but I suspect you did not learn anything that you would not have from the other end.
That said I suspect your chrome moly barrel likely had no taper. Lots of folks looking to try this are going to be pushing them down stainless(softer) barrels with taper lapped into the bore ideally, so it becomes bigger to smaller progression.
Boyd Allen
Active member
In my case, purely by accident, the muzzle was the larger end, and believe me, I am vary cautious about inserting rods in muzzles, that is why I started it to about 4 inches past the muzzle, with a dowel, and then used a coated rod very carefully for the rest. I have the greatest respect for crowns, having several barrels for my 6PPC bench rifle, and having to deal with a bullet that has become stuck in the origin of the rifling when trying to find jam with too little neck tension from time to time. (luckily, not that often) As far as the rate at which I advanced the slugging bullet in the .22 bore goes, I would assume that anyone would understand that this needs to be done very carefully and slowly, so as not to miss any detail. A friend has learned a lot of late by casting laps on brush cores in the muzzles of lightly oiled barrels, and if needed, upsetting them, by lightly pecking the pure lead, with a carbon fiber rod and blunt jag ( The lap is longer than the core to facilitate this.) He has been able to find tight spots and lap them out, and enlarge the bore so as to leave a little choke in the last few inches at the muzzle. Recently he did a name RF barrel for a friend, one that shoots very high scores, and after it had been chambered and tested, it was pronounced a good barrel. It had been slugged before it was passed to him and found to have some irregularities. This information has not been learned from the internet. He doesn't "do" computers. He has done it on his own, but when he got around to CF, I was able to give him some information that I have gleaned from good sources, that was of some assistance. The required finishes for RF and CF are quite different.
Joe Friedrich
Member
Boyd,
Your friend did good, have a few more for him to play with.
Regards,
Joe
Your friend did good, have a few more for him to play with.
Regards,
Joe
M
Mousse
Guest
Boyd, what grit or finish is needed for RF?
Bill Wynne
Active member
Has anyone been able to improve the accuracy of a match grade barrel by slugging and polishing it?
I believe this would be a highly tedious task that would require skills way beyond the ordinary or it would be commonly done. A lot of us would pay a great premium for a near perfect barrel. Maybe we already have and the ammo is the culprit.
Bill
I believe this would be a highly tedious task that would require skills way beyond the ordinary or it would be commonly done. A lot of us would pay a great premium for a near perfect barrel. Maybe we already have and the ammo is the culprit.
Bill
Bill, it is commonly done. Most do it with JB or IOSSO. It's called ruining your match barrel. Honest
Slugging and polishing have nothing particular in common. Slugging will evaluate a barrel, tell you if you want to try it, tell you where you'd likely crown it, tell you if it's round where it's absolutely critical.
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M
Mousse
Guest
Slugging barrels
Tim/Bill
As a gunsmith I've JB'd a lot of barrels both my own and a lot of customers' barrels. When I deliver a finished barrel to a customer I try to tell them to clean barrel VERY carefully. You can ruin a barrel whether just cleaning(routinely) or JB'ing.
I encourage JB every 2-300 rounds and most of the time I will them that I will show them how to do it. I strongly stress that if they're not careful, then I'll gladly order them another barrel as you can lunch one in one session.
Creighton Audette used to use this process(2-300rnds) in his over the course rifle back in the mid seventies and I watched him win the State Championship with a couple of 600yd cleans and 12-14xs in each match. That barrel had over 7,000 rounds. He did an article in the Rifleman that winter when he said there over 8,000 rnds through it. There was no rifling for 2-3 inches. I have a barrel from a customer that has over 7,000 rnds. which was his first barrel and he treated it as instructed.
Remember..... you need a good bore guide and you have to concentrate in keeping the rod in the center of that bore guide. Otherwise, you can ruin a good match barrel.....
Tim/Bill
As a gunsmith I've JB'd a lot of barrels both my own and a lot of customers' barrels. When I deliver a finished barrel to a customer I try to tell them to clean barrel VERY carefully. You can ruin a barrel whether just cleaning(routinely) or JB'ing.
I encourage JB every 2-300 rounds and most of the time I will them that I will show them how to do it. I strongly stress that if they're not careful, then I'll gladly order them another barrel as you can lunch one in one session.
Creighton Audette used to use this process(2-300rnds) in his over the course rifle back in the mid seventies and I watched him win the State Championship with a couple of 600yd cleans and 12-14xs in each match. That barrel had over 7,000 rounds. He did an article in the Rifleman that winter when he said there over 8,000 rnds through it. There was no rifling for 2-3 inches. I have a barrel from a customer that has over 7,000 rnds. which was his first barrel and he treated it as instructed.
Remember..... you need a good bore guide and you have to concentrate in keeping the rod in the center of that bore guide. Otherwise, you can ruin a good match barrel.....
A few years back at the IBS 200-300 yard nationals Hawkeye was there for a free scope job and bore scope give away. Even though I had one by then I figured, what the hey, I'll stand in line for a possible $700 bore scope. A good buddy and respected shooter was in front of me and when it got to be his turn he looked thru the eyepiece and after a bit, stood up ashen faced and said "what do you think? " I looked into the eyepiece on his barrel with 400-500 rounds down it and after turning the eyepiece a bit noticed he had no land at 6 o'clock for about 3".........yikes.
Pete Wass
Well-known member
I can tell ya of someone - -
One of the lads I shoot with is a trained Armorer (US Army) . He slugs and polishes barrels and makes them shoot better. He use to do it to match barrels when he was in the Army (Army Rifle Team). He made an old CMP 52, that wouldn't shoot in the proverbial bucket be competitive. The rifle is shot in our Unlimited matches and the lad is usually in the top 3 with it. He uses one small windflag and a soda bottle indicator; all made by himself ( The Shooter) The barrel was very rough in the beginning but the Armorer made it shoot. The Armorer does it to other barrels as well. I have seen him improve a number of match SS barrels.
There isn't anything magic about this process but it is a learned skill. Sure, perhaps someone can and will screw up a barrel by doing it but if one has the desire to learn a skill then sacrificing a barrel or two isn't that much in the scheme of the cost of education. Me, I am not interested in the tedium of doing it but if I had learned it to do as a job, as a skill for the job I was cast into, I would, no doubt, learn to do it. I suppose to the untrained, the specter of doing this, acquiring these skills seems not possible but, alas, some people learn to do these things and do them well.
My friend tells me that very few of those who start the Armorer's school finish it. They cull as they go, for one reason or other but such is the way of finding exceptional people. Most of us, given the desire, can learn the elementary things we need to learn to chamber barrels and put guns together. The subtleties that go beyond those purely mechanical functions are what separate the Craftsmen from the Machine Operators.
One of the lads I shoot with is a trained Armorer (US Army) . He slugs and polishes barrels and makes them shoot better. He use to do it to match barrels when he was in the Army (Army Rifle Team). He made an old CMP 52, that wouldn't shoot in the proverbial bucket be competitive. The rifle is shot in our Unlimited matches and the lad is usually in the top 3 with it. He uses one small windflag and a soda bottle indicator; all made by himself ( The Shooter) The barrel was very rough in the beginning but the Armorer made it shoot. The Armorer does it to other barrels as well. I have seen him improve a number of match SS barrels.
There isn't anything magic about this process but it is a learned skill. Sure, perhaps someone can and will screw up a barrel by doing it but if one has the desire to learn a skill then sacrificing a barrel or two isn't that much in the scheme of the cost of education. Me, I am not interested in the tedium of doing it but if I had learned it to do as a job, as a skill for the job I was cast into, I would, no doubt, learn to do it. I suppose to the untrained, the specter of doing this, acquiring these skills seems not possible but, alas, some people learn to do these things and do them well.
My friend tells me that very few of those who start the Armorer's school finish it. They cull as they go, for one reason or other but such is the way of finding exceptional people. Most of us, given the desire, can learn the elementary things we need to learn to chamber barrels and put guns together. The subtleties that go beyond those purely mechanical functions are what separate the Craftsmen from the Machine Operators.
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As a final thought, the ability to smooth out a rough barrel or a problem barrel is quite likely within the realm of many careful experienced folks. To take a match barrel and induce a proper taper throughout the bore, keeping it within acceptable dimension, without lapping the lands out of it, that folks is a different animal and I'd guess you can count those guys on one hand with fingers left over.
Ever hear the story about the poker player Pete? Basically, if you sit down to a poker game and look around and don't see a sucker, you better get up because your him.
Bill Wynne
Active member
I have never had experience polishing barrels and I have never slugged a barrel. With that said, after reading this thread, I have placed an order for some JB compound. I believe it is within my ability to improve some of my older barrels with this product if I had the proper guidance and instruction.
Now where do I begin?
Bill
Now where do I begin?
Bill
M
Mousse
Guest
Slugging barrels
Bill,
I read a cleaning article in Accurate Shooter about 2yrs. ago by Speedy Gonzales. If you can find that article then you are on your way to good cleaning practices.I like the fact that all strokes are done SLOWLY. you have better control of your cleaning rod.
To JB your bore, get a brush that is maybe 1 caliber smaller than your cal. barrel that you want to JB. Wrap a patch around the brush and check to see if the brush has any runout. Once you are satisfied that it runs true, I guess now would be the time to put the patch(wrapped, of course) on the brush. Wet with bore cleaner and push thru your rod guide(a good one,I hope) to see how tight it is in the bore. If it is tight, but does not cause your rod to bend all over the place,then you are ready to start. Work about just enough JB to cover your patched brush neatly(not so much that you leave most of it in your rod guide). Start with short strokes at the throat(about 1" long). I usually do between 5-10, then the next 5-10 should be 2" and so on until you get to the muzzle.
I put a stop at the muzzle(a small piece of alum angle) which I clamp to the barrel so the brush doesn't go more than 1/4 inch beyond the end of barrel.
Pull back out and recharge with JB and go back in, only now you go from throat to muzzle about ten or fifteen strokes.
I cannot stress enough that you must be very careful to make sure that you brush is straight and that your rod stays in the center of your good fitting bore guide. Good luck
Bill,
I read a cleaning article in Accurate Shooter about 2yrs. ago by Speedy Gonzales. If you can find that article then you are on your way to good cleaning practices.I like the fact that all strokes are done SLOWLY. you have better control of your cleaning rod.
To JB your bore, get a brush that is maybe 1 caliber smaller than your cal. barrel that you want to JB. Wrap a patch around the brush and check to see if the brush has any runout. Once you are satisfied that it runs true, I guess now would be the time to put the patch(wrapped, of course) on the brush. Wet with bore cleaner and push thru your rod guide(a good one,I hope) to see how tight it is in the bore. If it is tight, but does not cause your rod to bend all over the place,then you are ready to start. Work about just enough JB to cover your patched brush neatly(not so much that you leave most of it in your rod guide). Start with short strokes at the throat(about 1" long). I usually do between 5-10, then the next 5-10 should be 2" and so on until you get to the muzzle.
I put a stop at the muzzle(a small piece of alum angle) which I clamp to the barrel so the brush doesn't go more than 1/4 inch beyond the end of barrel.
Pull back out and recharge with JB and go back in, only now you go from throat to muzzle about ten or fifteen strokes.
I cannot stress enough that you must be very careful to make sure that you brush is straight and that your rod stays in the center of your good fitting bore guide. Good luck
Bill Wynne
Active member
Read the reply Pete. Call a few of the best CF smiths you know, ask them why they don't build .22's, you might find the answers insightful.