Secrets Of The Houston Warehouse

Everytime I see discussions pertaining to threads, I remember what Harold Broughton told me. The jist of it was "a tight thread will have clearance between the rear flank of the barrel thread and the front flank of the receiver. A loose thread will have more clearance. Clearance is clearance." Alan Hall and I had a conversation once about 45 degree locking lugs. We both thought the same thing that when the rifle fired, the coned lugs of the bolt would be pushed back into the coned lugs of the receiver. The outside of the action would momentarily swell, then come back down in diameter and the bolt face would be pushed back forward by the receiver compressing back to it's original diameter. I can't help but see that this would cause brass stretching problems.
 
I think I will say it again.
Much of what is being discussed in this thread is nothing more than solutions to problems that do not exist.

hi all
jackie as i think you will agree.?? the benchrest world brought the gunsmithing up to the standard it is today
some idea's very good some very bad but all with the same in mind to make things better so problems or not only good can come from
most idea's openly talked about on great forums like this one by great smiths like you and the rest.


regards tasy_ted
 
i dont think your comment follows jackies comment at all....
there is no problem to fix...is what jackie said.
so what is there to discuss....
you want to discuss an issue fine, show us the probelm first.
mike in co
hi all
jackie as i think you will agree.?? the benchrest world brought the gunsmithing up to the standard it is today
some idea's very good some very bad but all with the same in mind to make things better so problems or not only good can come from
most idea's openly talked about on great forums like this one by great smiths like you and the rest.


regards tasy_ted
 
Mike in Colorado, Ted's comments DO follow if you've read & agree with Vaughn's analysis. To the extent it is possible to prove his analysis, Vaughn did.

Which means it is a "problem," but unquantified. As far as *solutions* go, Vaughn himself tested the ramp thread by shooting 4 ten-shot groups. He reported that accuracy was not improved. So no matter how big the original problem, ramp thread does not seem to be a solution. See page 119.

If barrel movement & failure to return to the same point happens 1 time in 1,000 shots, "once in the life of a barrel" none of us really cares. Too many other things to worry about. If it happens once in 100 shots -- one a match -- we might want to address it, because that's about the point where something starts affecting competitive performance. Right now, we don't really know if it's 1-100 or 1-1,000.

As best I can see, all the talk about different thread with the accompanying consequences, is a red herring. Vaughn himself thought of a better solution, also diagrammed on page 119.
 
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hi all
thank you charles for comeing to my aid.
also on page 117 vaughn states (the ramp thread joint was reassembled with an axial preload of 31,000 pounds
and test fired again at a rapid rate to heat the barrel.
the wild flyers that had been present at elevated temperatures with the standard v thread were eliminated.) page 117 straight out of the book
this guy vaughn certainly did some work.
 
but a heated bbl is not practical in a br match...not in short or long distance, so the results are of little use in the real world.

properly torqued, it is a non issue in our shooting....

most people do not torgue ENOUGH.

mike in co
 
that bbl is not HEATED.....IT GOT HOT AS YOU SHOT....SO SHOT 1 HAS LESS HEAT THAN SHOT 15...his data was that in a HEATED bbl the shot to shot variation went away LATER in the shot count...not instantanously.....and that is a single example in 1kbr only.and not typical at all..lets see you do it in 100yd with a 22ppc ??......too much metal, not enough heat.

i know this how, because unlike some people i listen with my ears and mind open and my mouth shut. i have an engineering background.

most short range shooters have thier bbls under torqued and have no idea of what thier torque is. my engineering background does inclued serious torque work....i do have some background there. my benchrest limited experience is that people do not "torque" to a known value, but "tighten" till it feels good....which in MY belief is typically under torqued.

i feel comfortable with the torque i use to assemble my rifles.
mike in co
Practical? It's not avoidable if you pop off 10 quick rounds with a .300 Ackely - about 800 grains of powder, just after firing 5 sighters. Even worse with a .338 Lapua, though I suppose that's getting a bit big for 1KBR.

You know this how?

That it is a problem was exactly Vaughn's point. But I guess you can blame any such aberrant shots on the wind, it gets credit for all sorts of things
 
what was the number of shots to produce the heat to the point that the errant shots disappeared ???
no data....just what does it mean in the real wolrd of 5 and 10 shot groups ?

and add to that it was with a preload of 31000 LBS......show me a bbl installed with the conditions/torque used in a match today ???
so again it does not apply ....

mike in co
I went back and read Ted's post, and then page 117 in Vaughn's book, in case Ted had mis-typed things. Ted quoted it right. You misread. Engineering backgrounds don't solve that problem (In my youth, I was a recording engineer. Believe me, I do speak from experience). Vaughn's exact words:



How I read this is that as a barrel heats from firing rounds, problems appear. Your claim was that this level of heating doesn't occur in short or long range benchrest. My point was that if you fire a large long-range case like the 300 Ackley, it does. IIRC, you shot a small 6mm the couple of times you competed in 1K BR.

Now if you want to say that the occasional joint misalignment of the barrel and action, causing the scope to point to a relatively different point, is insignificant compared to the other things that can cause shot dispersion, that's different. But to make that claim, the dispersions would have to be quantified, a difficult task.

Most benchrest approaches are designed to eliminate potential problems rather than analyze their impact, because the sport is too small to interest anyone in getting statistically significant data for all of them. I believe Ted's point was this one's been swept under the rug, we simply assume it is too small to matter. To go from the assumption to a claim of fact is bad engineering. Yea, I've done that, too.

Just for one tiny data point, I have a rifle that solve this particular issue -- as I've said before, the scope is mounted on a barrel bock. Where ever the scope points, so too does the barrel. It has very few mystery shots. Proves nothing, suggests Vaughn might be on to a real-world issue as we get into the teen agg region.
 
al, i admit to limited short range experience, but what i have observed and read, says the average guy is not torquing, just tightening, and those that that do torque, under torque.
we had that discussion here some years back.

mike in co
That's a bold statement.

You must have factual information to back this up. Please present it. -Al
 
.......what i have observed and read, says the average guy is not torquing, just tightening, and those that that do torque, under torque. mike in co

Mike, "observed and read" are a l-o-n-g way from what happens in the real world of Benchrest. ;)

Good shootin'. -Al
 
well tell me what happens in the real world...
how many of you and your fellow shooters have torque wrenches?
and how many use them at bbl installation ??
the discussion we had here supported my claim...
mike in co
Mike, "observed and read" are a l-o-n-g way from what happens in the real world of Benchrest. ;)

Good shootin'. -Al
 
OK, I will say this.

What Benchrest has done to improve the accuracy of the equipment is simple. WE DO THINGS CORRECTLY.

You do not need gimicks to insure that components, when assembled, will function correctly. What you do need is the attention to detail that can be the product of nothing more than good, sound machine shop practice. That means, properly fitted threads that are truely square with what ever mating surface they will be working in conjunction with.

As for the tightning thing, I have personally "cured" two ill shooting Rifles of fellow shooters by tightning the barrel to what I consider the correct amount. Simply put, a threaded joint that must stay secure with no movement what so ever must be placed in tension. This old crap of just "snapping it against the shoulder" is just that, a bunch of crap. .........jackie
 
Mike, here's your statement:

.....most short range shooters have thier (spic) bbls under torqued

I'm just asking you to back it up with facts, is all.

Now, if you wish to preface such a remark with something on the order of: "In my opinion....." or "It may be that....., well that's cool. :cool: But a declarative statement such as you made means there are facts to back it up.

No big thing to back up a bit and restart.....

Good shootin'. :) -Al
 
no, i asked him to provide some data, you can do the same....
but you might read jackie's reply first.

mike in co
Al, I think we've moved into "'I've made up my mind, don't need facts." That's a *management* position, well beyond us poor engineers & experimenters.
 
That's a *management* position, well beyond us poor engineers & experimenters.

Charles, your comment made me think of one of my favorite Will Rogers stories.

When asked what he would do to curb the threat of German 'U' boats ravaging the shipping lanes in the Atlantic during WWII. He replied: "I suggest we drain all the worlds oceans. Then we'd know where they were." When asked how he planned to accomplish this feat he said: "That's an engineering problem. I just make policy."

Laffin' here. :D -Al
 
Charles, in the real world of fasteners, the most accurate way to achieve the proper tension in a threaded joint is to measure the actual "stretch" of the material. Every fastener has a predetermined holding force that it can exert upon a joint predicated on the strength of the material and it's ability to maintain that characteristic.

A few weeks ago, I was watching some Mechanics assemble the heads on a large 16 cylinder Bergam Diesel Engine in a TugBoat. They use a set of hollow ram jacks that stretched each bolt, (about 1 1/4 diameter), approx .012 inch, all in unison. They simply snugged the nuts with a spanner, and when the jacks were released, the .012 stretch was exerted onto the cylinder head. This is extremely precision assembling. No guessing. The Main Bearing Caps and Rod Caps were assembled using the same technique.

I really do not know what the proper "stretch" would be for a typical barrel tenon at 1.062 diameter. I could take and machine a test piece, threaded on each end, out of a barrel drop, insert it in a piece of heavy wall tubing, and tighten it in small increments to see when the actual "stretched" occurrs.

But, I would still not know how much actual stretch would be required to insure that the joint would stay stable under the ignition proccess in a Benchrest Rifle. I have arrived at that by the old tried and true method I use. I snug the barrel firmly with the wrench, making sure it is seated firmly against the shoulder, and then place a line with a felt tip pen from the barrel shank to the action ring. I then tighten the barrel untill there is at least 3/32 space between the lines. The amount of torque it takes to accomplish this on a 1.062 diameter 16 thread is about 125 ft pounds.
 
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hi all
please flame if i am wrong. but if it is good enough for n.a.s.a to use spiralock thread on there space craft because standard v thread fail under there loads.
and those guys are shooting people into space not shooting bullets down range. then it is good enough for me. and yes i do use a torque wrench with
(surgeon rifles action wrench sold by brownells item number #100-003-675AE ). flame suit is on go

you may find this interesting http://www.spiralock.com/sites/default/files/uploads/torque_charts.pdf


regards tasy_ted

ps: straight from spiralock web site ( Founded in 1927 under the name of Detroit Tap and Tool Co.. a manufacturer of cutting tools for the auto industry, Spiralock evolved over the years, tapping into new markets and industries with new types of products. The real breakthrough came in 1979 with the introduction of the Spiralock® internal locking thread form system. Successfully adopted by NASA on their space rocket engines, it soon became the choice of many of today’s engineers to prevent or solve screw threads from coming loose in a wide range of applications.

Headquartered in Madison Heights, Michigan, with operations in Europe, South America, and Asia, Spiralock serves a multitude of industries worldwide including aerospace, heavy truck, military, automotive, diesel engines, medical, farm & construction, oil & gas, and others.

Our vision is to be recognized as the leading international fastening solutions company. By understanding and staying one step ahead of the changing needs and desires of our markets, we’re confident we can develop the products and technology our clients need for their fastening solutions, even before they need them.

As of September 2008, Spiralock is part of the Black & Decker Corporation (now Stanley Black & Decker), as a division of Emhart Teknologies. Combining Emhart’s global leadership in the design and creation of unique assembly technologies with our reliable Spiralock fastening system, world-class technical expertise, customer service, and global logistical support, we continue to enhance our capabilities to help you improve your product’s quality and integrity. )
 
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"to prevent or solve threads from coming loose in a wide range of applications".

I was not aware of an epidemic of properly tightenned Rifle barrels coming loose..........jackie
 
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