Scope adjustment or Hold over?

T

TrxR

New member
Whats everyones opinion of scope adjustment or hold over in the wind? How many flags do you use and do you have any specific strategy that you use? I find my self making adjustments quite often through the target and not trusting myself to hold over and seem to be waiting for one specific condition. I also cant seem to be comfortable reading more than one flag at a time and find myself concentrating on the closest flag.

Any advice or tips.

Thanks
 
TrxR said:
Whats everyones opinion of scope adjustment or hold over in the wind? How many flags do you use and do you have any specific strategy that you use? I find my self making adjustments quite often through the target and not trusting myself to hold over and seem to be waiting for one specific condition. I also cant seem to be comfortable reading more than one flag at a time and find myself concentrating on the closest flag.

Any advice or tips.

Thanks
Click to expand...

Scope adjustment vs. holdover- I've found for me it is best to hold over as I'm not patient enough to shoot 1 condition. Whenever I've adjusted the scope & shot more than one condition I've found that I've over corrected for only 1. The days where all the flags are behaving themselves & the condition stays I will adjust the scope. These days are rare, & as the day progresses things always change. This is when it bites you in the ass!
Strategy- I find 2 conditions that I can shoot, or try to. That is what I look for. Y ou would be much better off waiting on just 1, be patient & only shoot it.
I've used anywhere from 3 to 8 flags at 50yds. The 8 were to confuse my competitors. It only confused me! Most use 5 & at least 1 probe.
As far as which to pay attention to you'll have to let the day dictate that. You'll see some strange things happen if you're in this long enough. And if you pay attention you'll know why you've missed. I'm fine with missing as long as I know why.Thats how we learn. Pay attention to them all.
Hope this helps.
Keith
 
Hi Keith, how ya doing?

I agree with everything Keith said, good advice. The one thing I could ad is something Harry Deneen told me many years ago, he said "I never hold outside the 10 ring". Well, I never reached that level of skill. But think about what he is telling you. He also said in a post on this board he "He waits for the hole in the wind". Think about that one too. For those youngsters among us Harry was one on the best RF shooters ever, look at the Hall of Fame for IR 50/50.

Al
 
Concentrating on a single flag, let alone the closest(usually) is a formula for bad outcomes
You need to watch all flags(4-6) and hopefully shoot when they are doing largely the same thing, not varying by 180 deg.
A great day is when there is a prevailing condition. You need to develop skill to identify what that is.try for a POI setting and hold for variences.
Often, you simply need to learn to shoot in 2 conditions but there is usually a prevailing one.
You must adjust your scope for the prevailng and hopefully modest hold. If you need to hold more than the 9 ring, things go down hill pretty quick.
Flag consistancy and prevailing condition are IMHO the 2 most important skills to acquire.
 
I've said this many times. You have to shoot what your rifle likes as they are somewhat different. If there's a better rifle in attendance you're beat before you leave home. If your rifle is not as good as any, you may find that it likes a particular condition better than any so shoot that condition and adapt based on the clock. You may be over-reading the flags. Consider the flags showing a "condition" rather than something more specific.

To answer the question - I'd hold for the condition rather than spend the time it takes to re-adjust the scope....regardless of how far I have to hold. You're trying to put a bullet hole in the middle rather than aim at the middle.
 
tim said:
Concentrating on a single flag, let alone the closest(usually) is a formula for bad outcomes
You need to watch all flags(4-6) and hopefully shoot when they are doing largely the same thing, not varying by 180 deg.
A great day is when there is a prevailing condition. You need to develop skill to identify what that is.try for a POI setting and hold for variences.
Often, you simply need to learn to shoot in 2 conditions but there is usually a prevailing one.
You must adjust your scope for the prevailng and hopefully modest hold. If you need to hold more than the 9 ring, things go down hill pretty quick.
Flag consistancy and prevailing condition are IMHO the 2 most important skills to acquire.
Click to expand...

Tim,
Thanks for your insight. The reason I posted on this thread has to do with a 2 match day I had on Sunday. In addition to your post, another couple posts also peaked my interest.

We had sustained 20-25 mph winds at Chief City in Illinois on Sunday for the first match. We had higher gusts that lasted several seconds as well. The second match saw even higher winds, about 30-35 mph and over the top gusts, but with a difference in angle. First match, almost always straight left to right with little switches. The second match a quarter wind from about 7 o'clock with some switching back to 9 o'clock. There was no shooting 2 conditions, winds were pretty consistent. Winds were so extreme some shooters flags actually broke apart.

I did very well on the first match and learned quickly in the sporter card to look at only one flag. Now I do not shoot sporter very well at all. I shot 3 matches that weekend, 2 at Chief City, and one the day before in Iowa at Voelker's club. Those 3 matches completed only my 4th IR matches ever. Sporter is not my bag yet. I am primarily an ARA shooter, but benchrest is benchrest. The guy that puts the most holes in the center wins in both sanctioning bodies.

I did win 13.5 in the first match, took second in 10.5 in same match and was second in 2 gun agg by one X.

So to you and others, does shooting in extreme wind change the way you look at your flags. To the OP's original question, I used hold off for all six cards that day. I was shooting over 4 Ray Hill dual vain flags. 2 standard, 2 up-downers and 2 Bob....forgot his last name.....starts with a 'P' and lives in New York, windicator/flags. My fourth flag from the bench was one of his and gave the best information as to where to hold. Hold on the first match was high right on the in between line of the 2 black outer rings of the IR target. About 10 o'clock. Furthest I have ever held shooting a match. My other flags did not seem to matter that day. If the fourth flag was 90 degrees to the field the hold I mention scored at least a 10 most of the time. I lost interest in the second match, was running out of ammo and did not shoot as many sighters. Didn't really care, as I shoot IR for experience and practice, not points.

So, in closing, would I have shot better going to the scope and adjusting? Are there times in extreme conditions where you have found one flag dictating where you hold?

Happy when I saw this thread, I don't come to this forum very often, but knew a bunch of good shooters do. From my experience on Sunday, to the OP, I would say use hold off. To the rest that I have addressed, what do you think about my Sunday match day?

Thanks
 
Scott, glad to see your shooting some sporter matches. While we didn't have quite as much wind as you this past weekend at LCRC, but it was quite breezy. Steady10mph in the morning, & 15-20mph in the afternoon with some higher gusts. There were some lulls of 10mph or so that were shootable...sorta.
I relied on holdoff & my probes. The probes to me are most valuable in the stiff winds & IMO its best to have at least 2. I could shoot well with the 1st probe between 2-3 dots laid over & the 2nd showing a letup, coming back 2 dots from vertical. I could not see a difference in the tails from 10-25mph but the probes will.
The hard thing is not getting in a hurry & paying attention to it all.
The other thing that I needed to be carefull of is the front flag fluctuating & the last flag turning l to r. I found I hurried & times & the 2 things would bite me. The gusts you don't see coming you can't do anything about.
There were times when a l to r would come & was very shootable, however they didn't last long or come back often enough. This is why I prefer holdoff to correction for a stiff prevailing wind.
 
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Keith,
Thanks for your reply. I remembered the last name of the guy that built my wind indicators. Bob Putzbach in New York. I don't know if you are familiar with them, but they are kind of a combo indicator/flag. I visited with Keith Loven that day and he said they were someone else's design (forgot the name) that quit making them and Bob got permission from that guy to make them himself. They have a paddle that is slotted over a vain and show green, yellow, then red on the scale....then they hit the stop. They rotate like a flag and have one tail. The paddle was on the stop almost the entire time in both matches. The only other times I glanced at other flags after getting a good hold point on the fourth flag/indicator, was my first and last flag, both Ray Hill up/downers. If either was up or down, I waited. The only shots in the heavy classes that were a miss was the few times the Putzbach indicators had the paddle back off the stop when I went to the scope. I started to shoot more 'heads up' shots after I figured that out during 10.5 in the first match and went on to winning the 13.5 card.

My Sporter scores sucked, in both matches. The one Sporter card I shot the day before sucked even worst, but Voelker mentored me on my rest set-up (rear bag) on Saturday, and the changes I made to it before Sunday's matches did allow a marginal increase in points and x's on Sunday in MUCH worst conditions. That Sporter drains me! I have the utmost respect for the guys that shoot that class in the 249-250 range. SO MUCH different than shooting a big power scope and 3" forearm.

I will take your "not getting in a hurry" advise to heart. I did not get in a hurry on the first match, if fact, only had less than 1-1/2 minutes on the clock before finishing my first 3 cards of the day. On the second match, I was mentally drained, wind was higher, I knew my Sporter card was worst than the first before it was even scored and I was running out of ammo. I shot a ton of sighters in the first match. So, 10.5 and 13.5 were shot quickly with very little sighters, even though the wind was now quartering from about 6:30 to 7:00. I shot my last card in 10 minutes and 30 seconds!

I'm glad to hear you are "happy to see" I am finally shooting some Sporter matches!! I don't know how happy I am about that right now....lol! Kidding aside, I am certain it will help with my heavy gun cards and ARA (what I shoot for points) scores as well.

On the above note, me being primarily an ARA shooter, I want to add something. The occasional bickering I see between certain ARA guys and certain IR50/50 guys would be best for the sport of RFBR shooting if they stopped. Especially on the forums. Guys like me, with limited experience, come to forums to learn things. I am entering my third season in sanctioned shooting, coming to the sport with some experience shooting RFBR informally. I did okay informally and have been happy with my performance since shooting sanctioned. The bottom line, no matter how the card is scored, no matter what the card's bullseye is configured like, the guy that puts the most shots in the middle wins. I have shot with some very accomplished shooters, in both disciples, and the end result is always the same.

To the OP, I will stand by my first post here, shoot hold off and I was shooting over 6 flags. Can be scary on a high wind day, but they will go in the middle if you shoot the sighters to confirm your flag inputs. To Keith, thanks for the reply....I learned from it. Bring more ammo on windy days and stay the course on how fast I shoot a card.

Respectfully,
Scott
 
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doclu60 said:
Tim,
Thanks for your insight. The reason I posted on this thread has to do with a 2 match day I had on Sunday. In addition to your post, another couple posts also peaked my interest.

We had sustained 20-25 mph winds at Chief City in Illinois on Sunday for the first match. We had higher gusts that lasted several seconds as well. The second match saw even higher winds, about 30-35 mph and over the top gusts, but with a difference in angle. First match, almost always straight left to right with little switches. The second match a quarter wind from about 7 o'clock with some switching back to 9 o'clock. There was no shooting 2 conditions, winds were pretty consistent. Winds were so extreme some shooters flags actually broke apart.

I did very well on the first match and learned quickly in the sporter card to look at only one flag. Now I do not shoot sporter very well at all. I shot 3 matches that weekend, 2 at Chief City, and one the day before in Iowa at Voelker's club. Those 3 matches completed only my 4th IR matches ever. Sporter is not my bag yet. I am primarily an ARA shooter, but benchrest is benchrest. The guy that puts the most holes in the center wins in both sanctioning bodies.

I did win 13.5 in the first match, took second in 10.5 in same match and was second in 2 gun agg by one X.

So to you and others, does shooting in extreme wind change the way you look at your flags. To the OP's original question, I used hold off for all six cards that day. I was shooting over 4 Ray Hill dual vain flags. 2 standard, 2 up-downers and 2 Bob....forgot his last name.....starts with a 'P' and lives in New York, windicator/flags. My fourth flag from the bench was one of his and gave the best information as to where to hold. Hold on the first match was high right on the in between line of the 2 black outer rings of the IR target. About 10 o'clock. Furthest I have ever held shooting a match. My other flags did not seem to matter that day. If the fourth flag was 90 degrees to the field the hold I mention scored at least a 10 most of the time. I lost interest in the second match, was running out of ammo and did not shoot as many sighters. Didn't really care, as I shoot IR for experience and practice, not points.

So, in closing, would I have shot better going to the scope and adjusting? Are there times in extreme conditions where you have found one flag dictating where you hold?

Happy when I saw this thread, I don't come to this forum very often, but knew a bunch of good shooters do. From my experience on Sunday, to the OP, I would say use hold off. To the rest that I have addressed, what do you think about my Sunday match day?

Thanks
Click to expand...


Well, again, prevailing condition. If the prevailing condition required holding into the black, you have to adjust the scope because holding out that far, IMHO, you're gonna get bit in the ass.
Again, remember, tnese are "general" guidelines.You spend lots of time with a single flag, ultimately, you'll regret it.
That said, quite simply, there are lots of days, as was told to me years ago "you can only get, sometimes, what the range gives you".
By the way, any info you get from Lovan, is gold, learn from a guy like that and kindly say hi to him for me.
 
Tim,
I did get 'bit' on a couple of bulls. Switching to more heads up shooting helped on the next card, but I understand what you are saying. I still need more experience and last Sunday was the worst conditions I have ever shot in. I am not used to seeing shooters flags break apart in the wind. Trust me, it happened that day.

I must apologize to Keith Lovan for misspelling his last name. Great guy. I had lunch with him and his wife Carolyn after the match on Sunday, along with their wonderful dog, Daisy. Keith was supposed to shoot the matches, but other things got in the way. Voelker thought he may show on Saturday, but he didn't make it. I met him informally last season at the Iowa state shoot, but had no idea who he was. It was my first IR match and I was kind of preoccupied.

I expect to see him back in Illinois for the state and regional matches in late July, which I will attend, and also at the Iowa state match in August. I will most certainly tell him hello for you. I really enjoyed his company and I am sure he has good tidbits of information to up my game. He has had an amazing career in RFBR shooting.

Thanks for your reply.......later, Scott

Edit; I will try the scope adjustment again in practice. I have done it in ARA matches and always seem to get lost in where the rifle is shooting.
 
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Scott, glad to see you're giving the sporter a try because it good to see people willing to give it a try.
They are challenging as you know & imo the reason I'm comfortable holding off. I can't see the scoring rings so am forced to. Most others are the same.
As far as any advice from me, I should do the same! Easy to say, another thing to do. I'm not blessed with patience that some others have. LOL
I'm pretty sure I'd seen the flags/probes you speak of but would it be possible you could post a picture of 1? I think there's a guy in VA that makes something similar as well.

Keith
 
Keith,
I have a love/hate relationship with my Sporter. I love the rifle (although it is very difficult to load) and I did buy the sweet little T-6 that shylock had for sale last year. Super clear and bright little scope. Rest manners and accurate tracking/target navigation are my issues right now. I am working on that.

As for hold off, I use the rings on the target to gauge the hold off when scope power allows, but we both know this is impossible with the 6X scope. I will not give up though!

Several bits of information here has given me new things to try. After Tim's comments I did remember hearing Stroyan telling another shooter Sunday that as soon as he studied his flags before the first match, he put 6 clicks into the scope on his Sporter for windage. This all makes more sense to me now, as the wind was 90% constant in one direction for the first match. Stroyan won that first Sporter card. When it did change, it was only slightly and for a very short time.

When I have tried scope adjustment in the past, and stated I got lost in where the rifle was shooting, the wind was switching more, a lot more. Amazing how I remember little things when talking to and getting different opinions from different people. I also remembered something else about the brutal match conditions.

All of our flags and indicators were maxed out during most of the day, so judging velocity was almost impossible. I was wearing shorts and a short sleeve shirt. I found a good hold off for the heavy class and started to shoot when the wind 'felt' the same on my body as it did when the shots were hitting 10's. Not like a visual reference when the flags are able to give the information in less windy conditions, but it did help.

My thanks to the OP for posting this thread. I have gleaned some good information here.

Keith, I sent you a PM about pics. Several issues preclude me from posting pics here.

Thanks to all......Scott
 
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doclu60 said:
All of our flags and indicators were maxed out during most of the day, so judging velocity was almost impossible. I was wearing shorts and a short sleeve shirt. I found a good hold off for the heavy class and started to shoot when the wind 'felt' the same on my body as it did when the shots were hitting 10's. Not like a visual reference when the fags are able to give the information in less windy conditions, but it did help.
Click to expand...

When the obstructions for the wind around the firing line allow it, your body is the most precise indicator of conditions bar none. Just my opinion.

Landy
 
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