scope accuracy

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br

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does anyone know what the company that makes march scopes did to hold point of impact? also, does a scope being a variable power introduce more piont of impact problems? im considering a variable power scope with a magnifier, but should i stick to a fixed power? thanks for any info
 
I have not nor do I intend to take apart either of my $2100 March fixed scopes to find out how they did it. I have an itch to find out but as I am not wealthy, I will continue to retrain my curiosity.

IMHO it would appear that the Deon engineers actually listened to precision shooters and put a lot of effort into meeting the "no POA shift" design criterion for the fixed scopes. They seem to have also come very close in the initial 10-60x variable. With the new March BR 36-55x52 EP (Eye Piece) Zoom Scope prototype shown at the Shot Show they would appear to have gone one step closer to ensuring "no POA shift" by moving the zoom group to the eyepiece.

You may want to review the "Scope help” tread over at 6mmBR forums http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=3304422 for some insight into your variable power question.
 
br

I have three March 50x scopes, and even though I have tore into many brands, I am not about to get out the spanner wrenches and start turning.:D

I do not know what Deon Optics has done to insure that the March will indeed hold POA. I suppose I am putting my faith in the what they say, although that bit about an engineer assembling the things seems a little far fetched. But, I have sunk right at $6500 into them, so I guess that fact speaks for my faith.

As for variables, I won't be buying any. As Scotty used to say on Star Trek. "The more complicated they make the plumbing, the easier it is to stop it up".............jackie
 
As far as I know the March scopes are glued together..... you ain't GETTIN' 'em apart with no spanner! In fact, when they take them apart at the plant they MACHINE the lenses out and replace the tube entire.

Maybe Murdica or Stanton will chime in to concur/refute.

al
 
March Scopes.

br said:
does anyone know what the company that makes march scopes did to hold point of impact? also, does a scope being a variable power introduce more piont of impact problems? im considering a variable power scope with a magnifier, but should i stick to a fixed power? thanks for any info
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Suggest you phone Kelbly Inc. @330 682 4674 and ask for George or Jim Kelbly.
 
I was lucky enough to hear Jeff Huber of NF scopes give about a 15-20 min. dissertation on why NF scopes were superior and why they cost so much. This was at the '04 or '05 SHOT Show. He did this while using a sectioned NF scope. It would not have been very interesting at all w/o the scope as a visual aid.
My point being, did March have a sectioned scope at SHOT? If not, the exhibit would not have been very intersting to me.

Jay, Idaho
 
It may be....

br said:
does anyone know what the company that makes march scopes did to hold point of impact? also, does a scope being a variable power introduce more piont of impact problems? im considering a variable power scope with a magnifier, but should i stick to a fixed power? thanks for any info
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As is true regarding any precision instrument, excellent upfront design, accurate machining by superior CNC equipment, careful lapping to fit parts together as close as possible, and very careful assembly, coupled with excellent quality control, probably is the "secret".

Even in the medium price class of scopes, careful assembly is the key. As Jackie has cited in the past, careless assembly coupled with poor quality control results in poor performance in an otherwise excellent product (Weaver and some other scopes as well).

I have a total of ten Weaver's (both the old steel T-series and the new) and have never had any problems with any of them. But...as Jackie pointed out with some of the scopes he has taken apart, I may be just lucky.

Virg
 
I agree with Jackie. For precision shooting a fixed power scope is less likely to become troublesome. I'm a life long believer in the KISS (keep it simple stupid) philosophy of engineering.

Jay,

The best I've been able to come up with is this low resolution cross section image of a March fixed scope.

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If you and/or Jackie can come up with any useful insights from that image please share with us hear.
 

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Jay...

Jay said:
I was lucky enough to hear Jeff Huber of NF scopes give about a 15-20 min. dissertation on why NF scopes were superior and why they cost so much. This was at the '04 or '05 SHOT Show. He did this while using a sectioned NF scope. It would not have been very interesting at all w/o the scope as a visual aid.
My point being, did March have a sectioned scope at SHOT? If not, the exhibit would not have been very intersting to me.

Jay, Idaho
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that's all well and good but my NF had to go back 3 times and they finally replaced it due to inability to keep the front lens fixed and the resulting gyrations in focus. The were absolutely fantastic in standing behind the product and I would highly recommend them because of it. Not every copy is a winner...ever...with anything. --Greg
 
glp said:
that's all well and good but my NF had to go back 3 times and they finally replaced it due to inability to keep the front lens fixed and the resulting gyrations in focus. The were absolutely fantastic in standing behind the product and I would highly recommend them because of it. Not every copy is a winner...ever...with anything. --Greg
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This is why March glues their lenses in.

al
 
The March scopes in fixed power have a ten lense design with all lenses being glued in. On the new 1-10 and 2.5 x 25 they have fourteen lenses in that small design. When the lenses are removed they do not have to replace the main aluminum tube, I am not at liberty to say how they remove the lenses, but lets put it this way, the one taken apart by Leupold was destroyed when Leupold tried to see how they were made. So if Leupold had this problem, think what you would encounter trying to take a March scope apart!

There are several reasons a March scope does not have P.O.A. shift. One being glued in lenses, another is no plastic parts inside with one third the parts of other benchrest scopes, third one is the turrets are lapped in and not a one size fits all approached used by larger high production scope manufacturers. This gives a much tighter tolerance. As one scope engineer from a large scope manufacturer commented that "any scope manufacturer that produces this scope, will be out of business in a year, it is too costly to produce on a large scale".

Deon Optical Design has decided to remain a small CUSTOM scope manufacturer to keep the same quality in the years to come as Deon is producing now. You will not find anyother scope manufacturer so committed to giving yout the best optics with no P.O.A. shift.

I had a call the other day and the person said there are some rumors that it is hundreds of dollars to have a March scope sent back to Japan for repair or possible warranty issues. Let me tell you that that is entiely false. If you send it by EMS service offered by USPS, I would not recommend any other way, it will costs you about 30 -40 dollars and you will have your scope back in about three weeks, I think you will find this as fast or faster than any other scope manufacturers service. We have had several scopes go back for possible warranty issues, none were found and no one was charged for any work or shipping back. How many scope manufacturers would do that.

As for the five year warranty, when a product is made 100% in Japan they can only have a five year warranty.

I hope this answers some of your questions about March Scopes, they are the finest scope we here at Kelbly's have ever seen in fifty plus years of Benchrest shooting. They fit the bill of what benchrest requires and have asked for. If you have not tried one, you should they are very impressive.

Jim
 
Leupold

Wonder why we don't have Leupold make such a good scope. Is the problem that we don't have anyone in the good old USA that can design away the POI problem?
 
Profit Margin versus Reputation?

Dew said:
Wonder why we don't have Leupold make such a good scope. Is the problem that we don't have anyone in the good old USA that can design away the POI problem?
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The following is only my opinion and I do not have inside information.

With all due respect to the long (101+ years) and illustrious history of Leupold & Stevens, Inc., I don't think the issue is design capability as much as the desire to invest the company’s resources in a very small segment of the market. In modern business practice (pre melt down) it was considered very dubious practice (particularly to investors and lenders) to embark on development programs that would pay back the investment (including all development, testing and production tooling plus initial marketing cost) in more than 3 years and provide a net return to the investors and lenders of less than 20% within 5 years. Since the meltdown, it will probably be years before any investors and lenders will be found at even that risk level.

DEON Optical Design Corporation that makes the March scopes started in 2004. For them to enter an established market, they would have to make a "big splash" and picking a small niche market (fixed high power target scopes) initially limited their risk by challenging a small number of complacent manufacturers and addressing the known problems in performance of the existing models. It would also seem that both DEON and Kelbly’s (with a big commitment from Lou Murdica) were willing to operate at a lower profit margin with a two markup market chain (3 steps - manufacturer to dealer to customer) rather than the existing broad line vendors four markup chain (5 step - manufacturer to wholesaler to distributer to dealer to customer).

Based on the sales success of the March 40x, 50x, and 60x fixed and on the early sales of the 10-60x variable, it would appear that DEON was correct in assessing the market for high quality high performance target scopes even at the relatively high prices. It would be nice if the other manufacturers and particularly Leupold would see the light and effectively address this market. Maybe seeing the crowds at the DEON booth at the Shot Show will get them to reconsider.
 
IMO it would be silly for Leupold to step up, NOW........

The market for this sort of thing is minuscule and pretty well covered by the March lineup. Seems to me that they GOT the niche and my only prayer now is that enough of us end-users step up that fine folks like the Kelbly's and Lou Murdica (and 2 or 3 others who aren't getting much credit) get a positive return on their money! :)

The level of COMMITMENT that some of these folks have shown is mind-boggling. And ANYbody who thinks that "someone's getting rich at those prices" is simply an ignorant boob. I can't say that nicely, so there it is. :eek:

al
 
Thank you all for the comments. I understand what you are saying. Perhaps you can understand why I ask. Take Savage Arms. For years that was the only firearms company that made a left handed rifle. I know because I bought my first one in 1966. With one or two exceptions, that was it. For years I waited for Remington to make a left handed action and now that I am getting on in years I can buy one. Same thing with Ruger. During that time along came CZ who has a number of left handed firearms and I am buying them and proud to do so. I just wonder what it is with the American system that seems to let the other counties get the jump on us. Same with .22 rimfire ammo. The best ammo on the market (match ammo) comes from across the sea. Yet, I would guess that much more .22 ammo is sold in the US than in the rest of the world. I remember Federal made some really good stuff and now that is gone. Does this mean that most of the (best).22 ammo sold in the world is used in Europe? Same thing with the autos made here. I didn't buy a Toyota because I wanted it more than a GMC. It was because GMC let the product go to pot quality wise. It is such a shame that we as a country don't step up to the plate.
 
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