Salt-Batch Nitriding barrels for extended barrel life

New man aboard

New Man Aboard, has any one gaind from having case hardening done to there barrel. I am thinking the one from Burlington Ont. Is it werth persuing, would be any real advancement to the groups we shoot from new barrels. could there be any chance of lost acurcy. thank you all for keeping this bench rest sport going, my Panda and its equitment are snowed in and have not seen any range time since Nov. In past years we shot small matches throught the winter, any where from 36 to 44 I THINK were the numbers,the top shooter of the day I am sure used to just shake there heads at how many of us youg Bucks just had to get our gun off through the winter months, I have met so many great people now from my two fatal attemps at supper shoot, Hope the U. S. boarder patrol will let me back in this year. thanks agian for you sharing your weath of knolage in this great sport Robert L.
 
stonecold said:
New Man Aboard, has any one gaind from having case hardening done to there barrel. I am thinking the one from Burlington Ont. Is it werth persuing, would be any real advancement to the groups we shoot from new barrels. could there be any chance of lost acurcy. thank you all for keeping this bench rest sport going, my Panda and its equitment are snowed in and have not seen any range time since Nov. In past years we shot small matches throught the winter, any where from 36 to 44 I THINK were the numbers,the top shooter of the day I am sure used to just shake there heads at how many of us youg Bucks just had to get our gun off through the winter months, I have met so many great people now from my two fatal attemps at supper shoot, Hope the U. S. boarder patrol will let me back in this year. thanks agian for you sharing your weath of knolage in this great sport Robert L.
Click to expand...

I use Joel Kendrick of Mimi Trutec. He is a shooter and pioneered this process for barrels several years ago. I had a great shooting Kreiger that Joel did for me. I normally get top shooting out of a barrel for about 1000 rounds. This one had 5000 rounds on it and had no visible wear by borescope or dropoff of accuracy. A former member of this forum wanted to show it to his gunsmithing class. I never heard or seen it since that time, about 3 yrs. ago.
I will be sending Joel 2 more barrels soon.
Butch
 
alinwa said:
OK..... I'ma' try again.....

This gas nitriding @ 900degrees. Can we "blue" or blacken a BAT action this way?

BLACK!!!

??

al
Click to expand...

I would not think so, as it's a completely differnent process. Perhaps a strait 900 degrees, but even then I'm not sure in the back of my head if that's gonna be hot enough. The idea with liquid salt is that you dip the part in it for a few seconds and pull it out to see what the color looks like. If you want a deeper blue you dip it in the stuff again. Personally I would not put a machined action in liquid salt for any reason. I'd be afraid of drawing back the original heat treat, as well as warpage.
gary
 
Butch Lambert said:
Jason,
How do you get the bore hot enough to make a ceramic work?
Butch
Click to expand...

Hi Butch,

Once the bore has been prepped and the Dyna-Bore Coat set. Firing the gun 6-10 times will set the coating. The more you fire the more set it will become. The temperature in the bore from firing one round is immense. Even though firing once, the heat dissipates very quick. The pressure created from firing also helps in setting the bore coat in this method. Firing a few times will set the bore coat.

For Airguners, choke tubs and/or numerous barrels, I recommend the "cooking" process. You place the barrel in a 200 degree oven for an hour to set the bore coat.

Please Note: Do not think of ceramic solution as a term for your ceramic coffee cup or porcelan dish. Dyna-Bore Coat has a high level of ceramic in the mixture, but there are other factors in the chemical make-up.

Please ask more questions and I will do my best to answer them.


Good Shooting,

Jason Lumetta
ExtremeGunCare
 
Jason,
We all spend extra dollars to buy barrels that have been hand lapped to
be straight with in .0002 or .0003. How accurate can the coating be applied using a bore mop?
What is the amount of build up after the coating is applied? How do you keep it out of the chamber/neck area?
 
I had H&M Metal treat my Smith Model 41 barrel, slide, frame, and trigger guard with their Black Nitride. I was worried about warpage, but I was very pleased with the results. The slide is pretty long and thin, and this is where I was concerned. I found no problems with it when I got the parts back. The pistol now has 600 + rounds through it and it looks like no wear is occuring in the bore or on the slide rails.

Phaseone.jpg


phase2.jpg


Blacknitride.jpg


phase3.jpg
 
Rflshootr said:
Jason,
We all spend extra dollars to buy barrels that have been hand lapped to
be straight with in .0002 or .0003. How accurate can the coating be applied using a bore mop?
What is the amount of build up after the coating is applied? How do you keep it out of the chamber/neck area?
Click to expand...

Hi Rflshootr,

Dyna-Bore Coat, when applied, will leave a 0.25 micron layer in the bore. By applying Dyna-Bore Coat with a bore mop is very effective. Dyna-Bore Coat has a high level of ceramic solution in a very rapidly drying solution. The first swab of Dyna-Bore Coat allows the coat to seep into the metal. The second swab will bring the coating flush. The third swab will bring the 0.25 micron layer. After the third coat is dried, over night, you begin to fire bullets to set the coating. That process will take care of evenly leveling any imperfections one would have if they had "put it on a little thick". The "cook" method I had mentioned in previous posts will also take care of any imperfections one would have if they had "put it on a little thick".

You want Dyna-Bore Coat to be applied to the entire bore, even the chamber/neck. When applying Dyna-Bore Coat we recommend going from the chamber toward the muzzle. The same way as when the bullet is being fired. After you apply your first coat, you allow the bore to dry for a good half hour, same for second coat, third coat is over night. While in this drying mode, have the barrel vertical, muzzle facing down. When you have applied the third coat, let the barrel dry over night, again keep it vertical muzzle facing down.

I hope this has helped in answering your questions and concerns in dealing with such very little tolerance you are having with your equipment. If I am not mistaken, 1 micron is 0.001 mm so 0.25 micron is 0.00025 mm. 0.00025 mm is 0.000009842519685039371 inches.

Is your measurement in inches or mm? 0.0002 inches is 0.00508 mm. Then you can see Dyna-Bore Coat at 0.00025 mm will have nill affect in your tolerances. If your tolerance is in mm 0.0002, your bullets may have more variance in diameter.

Good Shooting,

Jason Lumetta
ExtremeGunCare
 
Jason,
A few more questions came to mind..................
1) Has there been any testing as to increased/decreased muzzle velocity with coating the bore?
Also I am assuming that there is an increase of lubricity in the bore.
2) Does this same effect increase bolt thrust because of the chamber also being treated?
3) Is there enough heat/pressure in the chamber area to cure the product?
4) What happens if the crown becomes damaged and needs to be re-cut?
5) Will the uncured product embed in the brass and be transferred to reloading dies?
 
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Rflshootr said:
Jason,
A few more questions came to mind..................
1) Has there been any testing as to increased/decreased muzzle velocity with coating the bore?
Also I am assuming that there is an increase of lubricity in the bore.
2) Does this same effect increase bolt thrust because of the chamber also being treated?
3) Is there enough heat/pressure in the chamber area to cure the product?
4) What happens if the crown becomes damaged and needs to be re-cut?
5) Will the uncured product embed in the brass and be transferred to reloading dies?
Click to expand...

Hello Rflshootr

Question 1. The Manufacture states Dyna-Bore Coat will NOT affect velocity, accuracy or group size.
I on the other hand firmly believe it does increase velocity. No I do not have any kind of scientific data, but I will be working on this. Why I believe the increase of velocity is the metal is now permanently slick from the installation of Dyna-Bore Coat. Less friction increases velocity. I do not lubricate the bore, unless your talking about Airguns, in which case I have been in talks with a few serious Airguners and will get back with you on those results.

Question 2. I do not believe I am fully understanding the question. Dyna-Bore Coat should be placed in the bore of the barrel, choke tubes, revolver cylinders, removable breach of a black powder, etc.

Question 3. Yes. Even thought the heat is dispersed quickly from one shot, shooting the gun 6-10 times will set in the chamber.

Question 4. Apply Dyna-Bore Coat as recommended to the re-cut area.

Question 5. Dyna-Bore Coat is in a liquid state and when dried it already produces a pretty hard "film" if one could say. Dyna-Bore Coat will not transfer to a brass casing if you had let the product dry overnight. So no it will not transfer to your brass or reloading dies.

Please ask more questions as they maybe helping others decide if they would like to or not try Dyna-Bore Coat. You may bring questions other may not have thought of.

Many Thanks,

Jason Lumetta
ExtremeGunCare
 
Jason,
Let me rephrase question #2. But 1st, when a cartridge is fired, it expands and the case grips the chamber walls which take some of the force generated off of the bolt lugs.
So I guess my question was......if the Bore Coat gives added lubricity, will this in turn cause the the brass to grip the chamber wall less, increasing forces to the bolt face (bolt thrust)?
Thanks....sorry if I was a little vague.
 
steve b. said:
I had H&M Metal treat my Smith Model 41 barrel, slide, frame, and trigger guard with their Black Nitride. I was worried about warpage, but I was very pleased with the results. The slide is pretty long and thin, and this is where I was concerned. I found no problems with it when I got the parts back. The pistol now has 600 + rounds through it and it looks like no wear is occuring in the bore or on the slide rails.

phase3.jpg
Click to expand...

Thats a fine looking pistol.
I have a S&W 78g CO2 pistol, a replica of the S&W 41.
A friend found it buried in the mud of a lake bottom where it had resided for years, possibly decades.
I restored the pistol and it shoots great.
One thing I always wondered about was how the barrel survived all those years under water without a trace of corrosion. The water, and pollution had stripped all the finish off the slide and warped the grips, had dissolved the seals, etc, but the barrel was just as good as the day it was made.
I wonder just what this barrel was made of.

The 78g was manufactured under the S&W brand name, but I have no idea who actually made these. The grip frame also survived unscathed, its apparently a precision casting with a very tough finish.
The design is very simple but well executed with brass valve body.
Daisy made a lower quality version in later years.
 
Rflshootr said:
Jason,
Let me rephrase question #2. But 1st, when a cartridge is fired, it expands and the case grips the chamber walls which take some of the force generated off of the bolt lugs.
So I guess my question was......if the Bore Coat gives added lubricity, will this in turn cause the the brass to grip the chamber wall less, increasing forces to the bolt face (bolt thrust)?
Thanks....sorry if I was a little vague.
Click to expand...

Hello Rflshhootr,

That is a good concern to have, and I would say the answer is Yes. But keep in mind the bolt face is more than capable of handling it. Your chamber and bolt face is designed to be well over the specifications of its cartridge design. Good example would be for those accidental "oops" of reloading.

To think of people who reload, they vary their grams and types of powder, bullet grams, etc. that will have more affect on bolt thrust. I would imagine one would have a good variance in bolt thrust from reloads than when Dyna-Bore Coat is applied. The results would be minimal to nill.

Good Shooting,

Jason Lumetta
ExtremeGunCare
 
Old Gunner,

I picked it up for a really good price used, knowing that it was gonna get refinished. I gave the BN treatment a try, and I'm super pleased with the results. I have another 5 pistols groing through their process, a few rifle barrels (rimfire) and a rimfire action. I think these guys are on to something.

s.
 
i think your theory on velocity increase is probably incorrect. much like moly bullets, the extra "slickness" if you will requires a larger powder charge to hit the same velocities.i myself would also be concerned with the increased bolt thrust without seeing some solid scientific data to back up the claim of how much it is or is not increasing with the ceramic treatment of the chamber.
 
lefty o said:
i think your theory on velocity increase is probably incorrect. much like moly bullets, the extra "slickness" if you will requires a larger powder charge to hit the same velocities.i myself would also be concerned with the increased bolt thrust without seeing some solid scientific data to back up the claim of how much it is or is not increasing with the ceramic treatment of the chamber.
Click to expand...

The things we have discussed in these posts, I am bringing to the attention of the manufacture. I am waiting for them to come back from the Shot Show. I want them to know the concerns that everyone has. I realize many think Dyna-Bore Coat is "Snake Oil". I was even skeptical prior to using. Once I had used the product and did my own testing in what I was looking for. My Father and I created ExtremeGunCare and provide the DIY Kits and the service of installation.

I must admit I did not realize bolt thrust was such a concern. Again I am learning a lot about your discipline. Bare with me while I collect the information you request. For those of you who decide to try the product and do your own testing, please be another voice. Please post your information. I think it is important to know, good or bad, because of this discipline is so precise.

This product has been out over three years, used to be know as Ultra Bore Coat. The company merged, same formula just different packaging. I had used the product over two years and incorporated in March 2010.

Good Shooting,

Jason Lumetta,
ExtremeGunCare

PS. If you have any suggestions on the kind of testing and the requirments for those tests, I will pass that along and/or attempt them myself.
 
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CONCLUSION.... A polished or low friction chamber decreases the plastic strain near the case head and reduces the chance of case head separation on subsequent reloads.

A rough chamber might reduce the bolt load by 1000 pounds but increase the plastic strain in the brass case near the web. Rough chamber finish and/or excessive head space can cause "case head thinning" that eventually results in case head separation on subsequent reloads.

SANDPAPER FINISH.... For a 300 to 600 grit sandpaper finish on the chamber, the brass is sticking to the chamber walls and the case head contacts the bolt face much later in time. Once the brass "grabs" the chamber walls, the brass has to stretch before the case head contacts the bolt face. The bolt face load is reduced approximately 700 pounds lower than with the polished chamber.

All taken from the above article by Varmint Al..........Thanks!
 
RoyB said:
CONCLUSION.... A polished or low friction chamber decreases the plastic strain near the case head and reduces the chance of case head separation on subsequent reloads.

A rough chamber might reduce the bolt load by 1000 pounds but increase the plastic strain in the brass case near the web. Rough chamber finish and/or excessive head space can cause "case head thinning" that eventually results in case head separation on subsequent reloads.

SANDPAPER FINISH.... For a 300 to 600 grit sandpaper finish on the chamber, the brass is sticking to the chamber walls and the case head contacts the bolt face much later in time. Once the brass "grabs" the chamber walls, the brass has to stretch before the case head contacts the bolt face. The bolt face load is reduced approximately 700 pounds lower than with the polished chamber.

All taken from the above article by Varmint Al..........Thanks!
Click to expand...

Hello RoyB,

That was some very interesting reading. I understood what I was reading but way beyond the scope of what I am capable of measuring/testing Dyna-Bore Coat dealing with Bolt Thrust. I will see what the Manufacture can do in regards to Varmint Al kind of testing.

Many Thanks,

Jason Lumetta
ExtremeGunCare
 
Nitreg is a gas nitriding process. It is impossible for the gas to be circulated through the bore of the barrel. Also Nitreg provides no corrosion protection for your barrel. I have used the QPQ process in the past and it is far superior. I have known Joel for a while and he does good work. However I have had better luck with the guys at H&M.
www.blacknitride.com
 
"It is impossible for the gas to be circulated through the bore of the barrel. Also Nitreg provides no corrosion protection for your barrel"-- That is entirely false.
Any questions on nitriding feel free to ask me. Nitreg is without a doubt the best way to go.
 
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