Rimfire guns in the "Calm"

Pete Wass

Pete Wass

Well-known member
I have noticed over the years, ( how could one not notice!?) that on those days when the flags and ribbons barely move, if they do move at all and the rain is at hand, many rifles will shoot like one was feeding them WalMart Bulk Ammo. I saw it again first hand last weekend at our State Shoot. From the scores, one would think the wind was ferocious but such was not the case.

Considering that some folks shot good scores in some of those matches lead me to believe many of the rifles were out of tune. I know I struggled with both of mine on Saturday and Sunday morning but a slight change in the weather Sunday afternoon seemed to make a big difference. I am wondering if some folks would opine on this issue?

Can ya tell it's a rainy day and me with nothing to do?
 
Likely missed the mirage. tough to see on an overcast day. Another thought if the lighting conditions were changing, not that sun was out but brighter/ darker can also do a number on you. one more up/down drafts that do not always show up on conventional flags. On the range I am at there is never more than 2 lanes that the flags are reacting the same on it is like a giant soup bowl
 
I've seen the same thing, gun performs beautifully and as expected in "conditions", known good ammo, but get into dead calm or go indoors and it's like throwing a knuckle ball. I hope somebody can help me understand what's going on.
 
I know that I have addressed this in several posts and many new shooters, especially certer fire shooters, will not except the fact that rimfire/subsonic react differently than their faster bretheren. Deflection from aimpoint is not directly proportional to velocity. The slightest movement of air from the left or right will cause a verticle deflection, up or down (much more than it seems possible). Increases in velocity will increase this deflection but in a more reasonable amount. In the calm, do not shoot for zero, look for any air movement and aim accordingly.
 
blades said:
Likely missed the mirage. tough to see on an overcast day.
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Most likely it's this - and with no wind to disrupt it - the wake of previous shots, or those of neighboring benches. Long ago there was a toy "bazooka" that shot a "smoke ring" blast of air. We'd put talcum powder it it and watch the "smoke ring" travel across the room and hit a house of cards 20 ft away and knock it down - sometimes as much as 2 minutes after the "gun" was fired. Shot related turbulence hangs around a long time in calm air.
 
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There are quite simply some ranges at some times where conditions of a very subtle type do not show. The most often misunderstood is when there are several layers or air at different temperatures you're shooting through just like late in a day, just before dusk, after a sunny day, when the flags are still but you shoot lousy for a while. The ground is cooling and you're shooting through a few layers of different temp air.
 
Tim you and Don make a lot of sense
I have experinced all those conditions many times this year.
two ranges in particular.
one near me and one in nc.
layers of still air at slightly different temps makes that little bullet do weird things.
I think the up and down shots are caused by those conditions.
My 2cents for what its worth.
 
On occasion I have had some weird shots in the calm but I usually have good luck in the calm conditions. I think having a rifle in good tune and several speeds of good lots of ammo are what's needed. In warm, calm conditions I would first try some good slower lots of ammo. Ask Ed Longo if he likes shooting in calm conditions. Our match at Wawarsing last month had some calm, overcast conditions and he shot 1249/1250 with 97x's with his heavy gun.
 
Pete,
Don't know what type of flags or tails you are using but you may try lighter tails, props, anything to help. My primary flags are Wicks, but when it rains or even when it's damp outside they are pretty much useless. Will use a modified wicks or single vane with props and light tails when shooting in Dead Calm with or without rain.


As folks have already mentioned other factors are in play that the flags will not show. If your rifle is working as it should, it's tune and ammo, since you can't see, have no idea of what is really going on at that moment. The only thing you can read is where your last shot went and your hoping it will be able to repeat shot after shot. I do not worry about mirage shooting 50 yards.

Regards,
Joe
 
JessePatrick said:
Tim you and Don make a lot of sense
I have experinced all those conditions many times this year.
two ranges in particular.
one near me and one in nc.
layers of still air at slightly different temps makes that little bullet do weird things.
I think the up and down shots are caused by those conditions.
My 2cents for what its worth.
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Your 2cents is worth plenty Jesse. How have you been?
 
We had the same problem at our last ARA match its usually not calm but we had very light to no wind everyone was scratching their head
Most everyone was shooting Eley in the 1050 range I would have thought it would have been slow enough. Four cards my first three were exactly the same score. The wind came up for the fourth and I picked up another 250 pts

I tried smudge pots once, actually coffee cans burning cow pies, when there was no wind.... didn't work too well.
The wind truly is your friend
 
Vibe said:
Most likely it's this - and with no wind to disrupt it - the wake of previous shots, or those of neighboring benches. Long ago there was a toy "bazooka" that shot a "smoke ring" blast of air. We'd put talcum powder it it and watch the "smoke ring" travel across the room and hit a house of cards 20 ft away and knock it down - sometimes as much as 2 minutes after the "gun" was fired. Shot related turbulence hangs around a long time in calm air.
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So how come one or two rifles seem to shoot as well as they usually do in these situations and the rest don't? I see it happen all the time. One match a rifle works just fine and wins, the next match the same rifle shoots like it was a Skeet gun.
 
Pete Wass said:
So how come one or two rifles seem to shoot as well as they usually do in these situations and the rest don't? I see it happen all the time. One match a rifle works just fine and wins, the next match the same rifle shoots like it was a Skeet gun.
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Pete. LOL. There are way too many factors to that for me to even act like I would know.
 
Some guys simply refuse to believe there exist conditions which are not obvious. Some guys are also not capable of establishing an individual gun's baseline for maximum potential.

In the case presented by Pete, some things being equal as far as guns (rarely) the most common answer is that, while not evident, some are fighting a subtle condition, some are'nt. My personal baseline for condition is the nice gray, dead morning with a light drizzle. If , usually, you're gun won't shoot to max potential, you've got other issues.
 
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tim said:
Some guys simply refuse to believe there exist conditions which are not obvious. Some guys are also not capable of establishing an individual gun's baseline for maximum potential.

In the case presented by Pete, some things being equal as far as guns (rarely) the most common answer is that, while not evident, some are fighting a subtle condition, some are'nt. My personal baseline for condition is the nice gray, dead morning with a light drizzle. If , usually, you're gun won't shoot to max potential, you've got other issues.
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I like a light snow.... thousands of little wind flags falling from the sky and I prefer the low contrast of cloud cover.
 
Joe Friedrich said:
Pete,
Don't know what type of flags or tails you are using but you may try lighter tails, props, anything to help. My primary flags are Wicks, but when it rains or even when it's damp outside they are pretty much useless. Will use a modified wicks or single vane with props and light tails when shooting in Dead Calm with or without rain.


As folks have already mentioned other factors are in play that the flags will not show. If your rifle is working as it should, it's tune and ammo, since you can't see, have no idea of what is really going on at that moment. The only thing you can read is where your last shot went and your hoping it will be able to repeat shot after shot. I do not worry about mirage shooting 50 yards.

Regards,
Joe
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I have a set of flags I copied from single vane Wicks; same size and materials with the exception of small Daisy Wheels. I use 16" of surveyors tape for tails. I have balanced them assembled.

The answer appears to be tune and what I was digging for here.
 
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Pete,

I also use the surveyors tape, but when it's gets real calm, I have 5 single vane flags with tails that are made up from those white plastic grocery bags. They are much lighter than the surveyors tape. When the regular tails are just hanging limp, those light tails will still show movement. The tails I use are 22" in length. Ray Hill is in the process of making me up some double vane flags which will use a single tail for those damp nights we get here. My eyes don't read the single vane flags, especially in a evening shoot to well.

Any little thing to help I'll try.

Regards,
Joe
 
Pete Wass said:
I have a set of flags I copied from single vane Wicks; same size and materials with the exception of small Daisy Wheels. I use 16" of surveyors tape for tails. I have balanced them assembled.

The answer appears to be tune and what I was digging for here.
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Pete

I read somewhere that VHS video tape works particularly well as tails on those "calm" days. Being lighter than surveyors tape. I made my self a set but have yet to encounter a "calm" day. As where we're at, if its not raining it soon will be.
 
Hambone said:
Pete

I read somewhere that VHS video tape works particularly well as tails on those "calm" days. Being lighter than surveyors tape. I made my self a set but have yet to encounter a "calm" day. As where we're at, if its not raining it soon will be.
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Hmmmm. At work we use a thermal printer to make product labels. I've been using the ribbon from these printers as a thinner than normal plastic shim material, as it's only 0.0002" thick (roughly 1/4 thou). We go through miles of this in a week - not sure how many feet are in a 4" diameter roll other than it's a lot. It only comes in black as far as I know. Another possible use for it I guess.
 
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