I have a RimX with a heavy stainless M24 Muller barrel. Muzzle is not threaded but has a Harrel Tuner tightly clamped on. Reciever is glassbedded to a heavy black walnut stock. I'm shooting Eley Match black box ammo. First shot will go high ³/8" and left ¹/4" with a higher velocity a out 50 fps faster than the following shots. With a delay of a couple minutes the cold bore shows up. Other wise the gun is fantastically accurate. It's just the first round is faster than the follow up shots. Not sure what to do with it, could it be the barrel? The rifle barrel and chamber is clean, still does it. Not sure what to check next. Anyone seen anything like this?
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Rimfire Coldbore issues....
- Thread starter Chucker
- Start date
tonykharper
Well-known member
Chucker,I have a RimX with a heavy stainless M24 Muller barrel. Muzzle is not threaded but has a Harrel Tuner tightly clamped on. Reciever is glassbedded to a heavy black walnut stock. I'm shooting Eley Match black box ammo. First shot will go high ³/8" and left ¹/4" with a higher velocity a out 50 fps faster than the following shots. With a delay of a couple minutes the cold bore shows up. Other wise the gun is fantastically accurate. It's just the first round is faster than the follow up shots. Not sure what to do with it, could it be the barrel? The rifle barrel and chamber is clean, still does it. Not sure what to check next. Anyone seen anything like this?
This is very common in rimfire. Most rimfire barrels require several rounds to warm up or foul them so they will shoot their best.
Many have tried many ways to prevent this with varying degrees of success.
If you are target shooting just shoot a few fouler rounds until your barrel settles down before going to your scoring target.
If you have to have an accurate first shot study where your first shot impact is and account for it with your point of aim on that first shot.
I know this isn't the solution you were hoping for and maybe others can add to this.
TKH
If I wait say 3 minutes, the high velocity shot shows up. It's kinda like the Eley bullet lube in the bore gets cold and the next shot after the delay is fast by about 50 fps. It's weird and very tough to determine where the first shot will go at say 300 yds. I'm perplexed. I tried some CenterX just to see if it wad a bullet lube issue but the condition still exists with the first round from the mag as fast.
tonykharper
Well-known member
I’m not being smart but shooting a rimfire at 300 yards is anything but precision. It can be fun but so can shooting sling shots.If I wait say 3 minutes, the high velocity shot shows up. It's kinda like the Eley bullet lube in the bore gets cold and the next shot after the delay is fast by about 50 fps. It's weird and very tough to determine where the first shot will go at say 300 yds. I'm perplexed. I tried some CenterX just to see if it wad a bullet lube issue but the condition still exists with the first round from the mag as fast.
If you need accuracy at that distance you will be much better off with a centerfire.
TKH
Thanks Tony. I'm shooting ELR with a rimfire engaging targets from 50 to 400 yards. It's mostly for fun.
The struggle is its tough to predict where the first shot will go due to the length of time between shots. The velocity is changing due to the time between shots. How do I fix this? I'm stumped.
The struggle is its tough to predict where the first shot will go due to the length of time between shots. The velocity is changing due to the time between shots. How do I fix this? I'm stumped.
tonykharper
Well-known member
As long as you are having fun that is all that really matters. It would drive me crazy. That is the reason I gave up shooting bottle caps.
I watched others do it, and do it well, but I never was able to get a handle on it, so I moved on to something that was just as much fun but contained elements that I was able to get a read on.
Hang in there or move on to something else. We are so lucky to have many shooting games we can participate in.
Good luck.
TKH
I watched others do it, and do it well, but I never was able to get a handle on it, so I moved on to something that was just as much fun but contained elements that I was able to get a read on.
Hang in there or move on to something else. We are so lucky to have many shooting games we can participate in.
Good luck.
TKH
Hi-NV Shooter
Member
In my experience when I see a shot go high or low left it is my tuner setting. to check this on your rifle take off the tuner and shoot it to see if it still does it.I have a RimX with a heavy stainless M24 Muller barrel. Muzzle is not threaded but has a Harrel Tuner tightly clamped on. Reciever is glassbedded to a heavy black walnut stock. I'm shooting Eley Match black box ammo. First shot will go high ³/8" and left ¹/4" with a higher velocity a out 50 fps faster than the following shots. With a delay of a couple minutes the cold bore shows up. Other wise the gun is fantastically accurate. It's just the first round is faster than the follow up shots. Not sure what to do with it, could it be the barrel? The rifle barrel and chamber is clean, still does it. Not sure what to check next. Anyone seen anything like this?
Lee
In my experience when I see a shot go high or low left it is my tuner setting. to check this on your rifle take off the tuner and shoot it to see if it still does it.
Lee
Lee, in this case it is a no lube/cold lube issue….well known, zero to do with tuner.
I don't think the tuner has anything to do with the velocity changes I'm seeing. The velocity changes are the culprit. When the ammo stays between 1090 and 1080fps it shoots great. It's when I stop shooting it cools in a minute or two. I'm thinking the bore may need an aggressive cleaning. Not sure.
Hi-NV Shooter
Member
Tim, Unless I read it wrong OP is saying every shot after a few minutes wait is having that high left. so, it has lube/fouled, which means the rifle won't wait. every rifle I had that did that was a tuner not set right. a rifle that won't wait is out of tune from my experience.Lee, in this case it is a no lube/cold lube issue….well known, zero to do with tuner.
I believe there is a test where you shoot 4 shots then wait a few minutes then shoot the 5th shot, if the 5th shot doesn't go into the group, it is not tuned. I think it is called the water bore test. could be something else is happening here but I have seen it many times and culprit was out of tune.
Lee
Hi-NV Shooter
Member
That could be the problem, the bore needs to be scrubbed. but I assumed you keep the bore clean. and that may be my mistake. but your description of what is happening is exactly what I see in an out of tuned rifle.I don't think the tuner has anything to do with the velocity changes I'm seeing. The velocity changes are the culprit. When the ammo stays between 1090 and 1080fps it shoots great. It's when I stop shooting it cools in a minute or two. I'm thinking the bore may need an aggressive cleaning. Not sure.
Lee
Lee,Tim, Unless I read it wrong OP is saying every shot after a few minutes wait is having that high left. so, it has lube/fouled, which means the rifle won't wait. every rifle I had that did that was a tuner not set right. a rifle that won't wait is out of tune from my experience.
I believe there is a test where you shoot 4 shots then wait a few minutes then shoot the 5th shot, if the 5th shot doesn't go into the group, it is not tuned. I think it is called the water bore test. could be something else is happening here but I have seen it many times and culprit was out of tune.
Lee
That’s why I said first/cold.
Barrels vary, but also well known, it is wise to know how long your barrel can wait between shots and still shoot to established POI.
If you wait more than a bit for a condition, it’s wise to throw i-2 sighters before next record shot to reestablish a consistent warm lube in your bore.
Myself, I have learned, even if I’m waiting on conditions, I will maintain a fairly steady shot pace by picking away on sighters to keep things moving along.
Some barrels will give you more latitude than others on time.
I have no reason to doubt out of tune to be one of several issues but what I describe will develop with well tuned guns, and is well established.
What say you, TKH and Pedro?
I think we are mixing things.
On thing is a 1st shot out, and other thing is whatever the shot number, if the rifle goes out of its rhythm, the next shot is out.
1st condition is a non issue. Just shot until it groups and you're done until next cleaning.
If you clean, the circle starts again.
2nd condition is, to me, either a tuning issue, or a barrel issue.
Let me develop my thoughts.
I do use, as Lee and many others, the waiting technique to fine tune my rifles. And yes, it's fairly simple, you shot a 3~5 shot group, put a bullet in the chamber and wait for at least 1m. Normally I'll do 2~3 min. Then shot that round and if it goes within the group all is done, if not, continue to fine tune.
But, if the barrel needs to be warm to shoot within the group, and if it goes out every time you stop for a moment, doesn't respond to whatever you do to fine tune it, you have to look elsewhere.
I do respect Tim opinions, and sometimes we have to live with such barrels. Then what he said is what you'll need to do. Continue to maintain the rifle rhythm, shooting the sighters.
In fact my rifle at the 2018 Worlds was like that. As conditions were bad I used more than a box on each card...
On thing is a 1st shot out, and other thing is whatever the shot number, if the rifle goes out of its rhythm, the next shot is out.
1st condition is a non issue. Just shot until it groups and you're done until next cleaning.
If you clean, the circle starts again.
2nd condition is, to me, either a tuning issue, or a barrel issue.
Let me develop my thoughts.
I do use, as Lee and many others, the waiting technique to fine tune my rifles. And yes, it's fairly simple, you shot a 3~5 shot group, put a bullet in the chamber and wait for at least 1m. Normally I'll do 2~3 min. Then shot that round and if it goes within the group all is done, if not, continue to fine tune.
But, if the barrel needs to be warm to shoot within the group, and if it goes out every time you stop for a moment, doesn't respond to whatever you do to fine tune it, you have to look elsewhere.
I do respect Tim opinions, and sometimes we have to live with such barrels. Then what he said is what you'll need to do. Continue to maintain the rifle rhythm, shooting the sighters.
In fact my rifle at the 2018 Worlds was like that. As conditions were bad I used more than a box on each card...
Hi-NV Shooter
Member
Ok, Tim I understand now what you are meaning. I see most of the time a high right about 1'o-clock from a fresh clean bore out of the case. but once fouled, no problem after that.Lee,
That’s why I said first/cold.
Barrels vary, but also well known, it is wise to know how long your barrel can wait between shots and still shoot to established POI.
If you wait more than a bit for a condition, it’s wise to throw i-2 sighters before next record shot to reestablish a consistent warm lube in your bore.
Myself, I have learned, even if I’m waiting on conditions, I will maintain a fairly steady shot pace by picking away on sighters to keep things moving along.
Some barrels will give you more latitude than others on time.
I have no reason to doubt out of tune to be one of several issues but what I describe will develop with well tuned guns, and is well established.
What say you, TKH and Pedro?
Lee
Hi-NV Shooter
Member
Pedro, I believe you are correct. at least for me, in my case I misunderstood what Tim meant. if after tuning the barrel won't wait then it is time for a new one. I been very lucky, I been able to find the tune that will wait on all three of my rifles.I think we are mixing things.
On thing is a 1st shot out, and other thing is whatever the shot number, if the rifle goes out of its rhythm, the next shot is out.
1st condition is a non issue. Just shot until it groups and you're done until next cleaning.
If you clean, the circle starts again.
2nd condition is, to me, either a tuning issue, or a barrel issue.
Let me develop my thoughts.
I do use, as Lee and many others, the waiting technique to fine tune my rifles. And yes, it's fairly simple, you shot a 3~5 shot group, put a bullet in the chamber and wait for at least 1m. Normally I'll do 2~3 min. Then shot that round and if it goes within the group all is done, if not, continue to fine tune.
But, if the barrel needs to be warm to shoot within the group, and if it goes out every time you stop for a moment, doesn't respond to whatever you do to fine tune it, you have to look elsewhere.
I do respect Tim opinions, and sometimes we have to live with such barrels. Then what he said is what you'll need to do. Continue to maintain the rifle rhythm, shooting the sighters.
In fact my rifle at the 2018 Worlds was like that. As conditions were bad I used more than a box on each card...
Lee
Hi Fred,
Normally the out shot goes either up (majority of times) or down (fewer).
Either will mean a vertical line, and a vertical line means tuner out.
Things get more "complex" when it goes up and left/right, or down left/right. It could mean a not concentric tuner.
Sometimes you just can't get rid of those waiting shots. So, either you keep shooting to maintain the rhythm, or you learn where that out shot went, and just compensate aim.
That's why practicing with a plan is so important. You could just spend a day in the range practicing this: 1st line - wait. Shot - look at POI; 2nd line - wait. Compensate POA, shot... and so on.
Practicing gives a lot of luck!
Normally the out shot goes either up (majority of times) or down (fewer).
Either will mean a vertical line, and a vertical line means tuner out.
Things get more "complex" when it goes up and left/right, or down left/right. It could mean a not concentric tuner.
Sometimes you just can't get rid of those waiting shots. So, either you keep shooting to maintain the rhythm, or you learn where that out shot went, and just compensate aim.
That's why practicing with a plan is so important. You could just spend a day in the range practicing this: 1st line - wait. Shot - look at POI; 2nd line - wait. Compensate POA, shot... and so on.
Practicing gives a lot of luck!
tonykharper
Well-known member
Lee,
That’s why I said first/cold.
Barrels vary, but also well known, it is wise to know how long your barrel can wait between shots and still shoot to established POI.
If you wait more than a bit for a condition, it’s wise to throw i-2 sighters before next record shot to reestablish a consistent warm lube in your bore.
Myself, I have learned, even if I’m waiting on conditions, I will maintain a fairly steady shot pace by picking away on sighters to keep things moving along.
Some barrels will give you more latitude than others on time.
I have no reason to doubt out of tune to be one of several issues but what I describe will develop with well tuned guns, and is well established.
What say you, TKH and Pedro?
Tim,
Here is my thoughts. First, I don't think a .22 LR rimfire is capable of being an accurate 300 yard rifle.
I would think tuning to shoot at 300 yards would be nearly impossible. There is so much going on over that distance I wouldn't be able to tell what was causing what. I simply would not waste the time or ammo trying to do it.
That is not to say I think shooting a rimfire at 300 yards is a waste of time. I'm sure it is fun for those that choose to do it.
The cold bore issue is real and easily demonstrated. A rimfire round shoots best when it rides a layer of lube all the way down the barrel. That is what many call fouling the bore. Back in the days before we used tuners one could see a roll of wax around the crown indicating the bore was covered from chamber to muzzle with a coat of lube. This layer of wax was thought to be completely necessary for a rimfire to shoot well. That is why many didn't clean rimfire barrels until thousands of rounds had been fire through it. This was back in the days when Eley used bees wax and tallow to lube the bullets and they actually covered the bullets well. Not so anymore. The stuff they use now isn't as easily seen but it can be felt.
Therefore, if you clean your barrel you should expect to have to replace that lube before it achieves its best accuracy. And yes, that first shot will often go high.
The water in the bore problem is a different issue. Depending on atmospheric conditions water will form in the bore between shots. If you don't shoot in a rhythm, you will again not achieve your best accuracy. As Pedro and Tim said if you have to wait for your shooting condition to return you better keep shooting at the same pace to keep the water in the barrel as equal as possible between shots.
I believe differing amounts of water in the bore will cause varying effects on the round. As I, and others have said it can be managed, but I have no idea how it can be tuned out.
Some may recall Harry Deneen use to paint his barrels black. The idea was to keep the heat in the barrel as long as possible. I have no idea if it worked but I do know Harry kicked a lot of butt in his days.
TKH
Thanks Tony. I'm shooting ELR with a rimfire engaging targets from 50 to 400 yards. It's mostly for fun.
The struggle is its tough to predict where the first shot will go due to the length of time between shots. The velocity is changing due to the time between shots. How do I fix this? I'm stumped.
Try this to get rid of the carbon ring. ELR is different from 50 yard benchrest and requires a different cleaning method. Usually you don't get to use sighters to warm up your barrel in ELR. Both are fun.