Right bolt, right port and bench reloading "table manners".

[Mike Darlow]

I understand the importance of shooting quickly. At least when you think you'll have a stable condition to get your 5 score shots off.

I have a right bolt right port rifle with an ejector. For those experience competitors who have this setup. How have you developed your technique to shoot fast or as fast as possible? Like, where do you put your ammo, do you have an elbow rest? What is your step by step process from shot to shot? For example, do you:
-shoot
-during recoil, you open the bolt with right hand
-grab a cartridge, is it on a block close to your hand or your rest? etc...

You see, I am trying to develop better "table manners" while keeping my body as still as possible, especially my head for flag reading.

Thanks, Mike.

 

[crb]

I shoot a RBLP Drop Port 6ppc in group matches and a RBRP no drop - no eject 30br in our club's score matches. I have a 30PPC setup coming for the drop port rifle . Below are pics of the cartridge holders I use. The one for the right port is shown with a 22LR holder but I also have a BR top for it. The base is a steel disc about 4" in dia and about 3/4" thick. I have a plastic food tray that I place under the steel disc to use for the empties.

I have a hard time keeping the rifle pinned against the stop with the right port. No problem with the left port.

 

[Pete Wass]

Imho

the holders are a significant benefit to being able to manage one's table manners if they want or need to go fast. I have tried a couple. I like the free-standing one I bought last best so far. It holds 10 in the upright stack and another 10 or 15 standing up on the plate the upright sits on. Springman Rifles made it. It was made for Long Distance shooting I believe but it works great for me. It can be moved anywhere one wants to move it and is heavy enough to be stable (solid Aluminum) nice unit, worth the money.

 

[Kent Harshman]

RB/RP Shooting

I have spend a LOT of time in the last 15 years watching GREAT RB/RP shooters shoot, and trying to refine my technique to model them. Tony Boyer, Faye Boyer, Smiley Hensley, John Brown, Wayne Campbell, Dale Boop, Allie Euber & Lee Euber come to mind. I have not watched Allie & Lee shoot for a couple of years, but of the other six, Tony, Faye & Wayne use a cartridge holder made by, or modeled after the one that Scotty Crawford makes. They also use a Farley rest. Smiley, John & Dale lay the cartridges out on their towel...no cartridge holder...and use a Hart rest...no adjustment...
Your left hand should NEVER leave the "gearshift" if you use a Farley rest, or never leave the base of your rear bag if you use a fixed position front rest. Additionally, always, Always, ALWAYS keep your left eye open to watch the field! An additional suggestion if you use a cartridge holder...have the five rounds that you are going to shoot on the record target at, or above, the level of the port. Do NOT have to "raise" them to get them into the port...that's wasted motion...
Here's the sequence that has worked pretty well for me after watching these guys shoot LOTS of groups over the years:
When you go to the record target, move the rifle back and forth in the bags to make certain that no "set" has been taken as you adjusted upwards from the sighter.
Adjust your point-of-aim with your left hand, and fire the first shot.
Without taking your eye out of the scope, push the rifle forward with your right shoulder while opening the bolt with your right hand...all the while keeping your left eye on the field of flags.
As the rifle hits the front stop, you should be reaching for a cartridge on the block or from the towel with your right hand, while beginning to make your point-of-aim adjustment with your left hand.
As you throw the round into the port and close the bolt with the right hand, your mental approach should be finalizing the decision as to whether you're going to continue shooting or stop (95+ % of the time you should be continuing...if you are not, better pay more attention to starting at the right time)...and finalizing your point-of-aim for the next shot.
Continue this until you are finished shooting your group...
Much has been written about whether or not you should shoot with your stock against the front stop. If conditions are such that it is going to take a .15xx to win the agg, maybe it makes sense to take the extra time to pull the rifle ever so slightly off the stop to "preload" the position of your stock in the direction that it is going to recoil. If conditions are such that shooting below .25xx is going to have you "in the hunt", do NOT waste your time!
Forget the elbow pads, props to elevate your wrist, and all that other fancy stuff that has come along in the last couple of years. All you need is a towel that is big enough to give your right arm/elbow some protection, and that is going to catch your empties. Make certain that it is well secured in some way...sooner or later you're going to shoot in a match that will have wind that is blowing it all over the place. I REALLY like the new towels that Dave Dohrman is selling...
Of the shooters I have mentioned above, Wayne & Dale are the only two that frequent this board. I hope that they will jump in here and add their thoughts about any of the above...
Good Luck to you...

 

[liljoe]

If you stand directly behind some of the shooters that Kent named and watch them you can hardly tell when they are shooting because they don't move at all.

It takes lots of practice to get efficient on the bench. Set your gun up on a table in your garage and practice loading empty rounds through your gun. Work on smooth first and the speed will come with time.

Joe Hynes

 

[Mike Darlow]

Thanks Kent

I have observed Wayne Campbell and Tony Boyer and other top shooters at the 08 Supershoot. The thing is, these pros are very smooth. Being a novice shooter, its hard to see the details. I have since then, digested a lot of wonderful information from that match.

I do practice on my kitchen table with some dummy rounds.
I have invested in a JJ front rest and I think my rear bag is fairly solid. I want to try a loading block close to the port. I will follow your advise Kent and I need to practice till its second nature.

Here are the mistakes I find myself doing a lot.
I often catch myself forgetting where the flags are, especially the vanes, because I don't keep a constant sight picture. My head is all over the place.
I don't lift up (rotate) my bolt smoothly enough and the rifle moves sideways. I do use the technique as described in Mike Ratigan's book but its still something I need more practice with.
I am one of those guys with no eye dominance so I am not shure exactly how to use this to my advantage. Its easy to look at the flags while having somewhat of an idea of my crosshairs. But I must close my left eye when I shoot or else my reticle parallax is off. I find that I leave my left eye closed after I have shot.
I have been putting the bullets in a block on the table but I find them uncomfortable to grab. I often turn my head to see my hand grab them. I don't want to loose sight of my flags so sometimes I loose count of my record shots. So I have to stop and count my target or see how many rounds are missing off my block.
Sounds kinda stupid but I make these mistakes.

 

[caroby]

Keeping count.

I often turn my head to see my hand grab them. I don't want to loose sight of my flags so sometimes I loose count of my record shots. So I have to stop and count my target or see how many rounds are missing off my block.

Mike,
Simply keep 5 shots ALWAYS seperate at the front of your block for your record. Always replace a quickly spent record shot on the sighter target so you don't loose count when ya got a + -.100 something going on your record...

Practice, practice... You'll get your own bench system down.

cale

 

[tim in tx]

mike sir

there are many ways to shoot fast i am sure,what ever you feel the most comfortable with is the way to go .the trick is to cut down on movment as much as posssible ,by putting the loaded round right next to the port ,that will reduce loading time ,in addition to not have to look to grab a round every time so you can keep an eye on the wind, and most importantly setting up the holder to shoot until the holder is empty there is no worry about miscounting . i ussually shoot with the loading hand over the top but i have seen many very smooth and fast long range shooters just flip them in from underneath, but that is hard to do with a round that is longer than the loading port ,in my case long mags for long range. hope this helps sir. tim in tx

 

[chazgreen]

This is a GREAT thread. I have learned much here. Thanks to all who have contributed/ Newbe Chaz

 

[crb]

While shooting fast is an important skill you also need to spend a lot of time on shooting 'out of condition'. This is my second year and I have come to realize that shooting fast had become a crutch for me. At Riverbend you have to be able to shoot very fast to get out 5 shots before the condition changes and a lot of times you are lucky to get off 2 or 3.

I have had several instances where I got off one shot and then the condition changed radically. When the guy calls 'two minutes !!!!' you have to be able to find where to hold and put the next 4 'near' the first hole.

I also have bad vision in the left eye so I have to lift my head to check the flags. I try to do this while I am reloading.

 

[Pete Wass]

Several years ago

I watched Kent shooting at a Score event at Thurmont, Md and I was so impressed I sold my RBLP rifles and went to RRR's. I have struggled to get my my rifles to eject well but finally have some. What I haven't done is practice shooting them fast.

I have also watched some of the folks he mentioned shooting and did notice that they never take their eyes off their flags while they are shooting. I realized after watching one of them that there was a whole lot more to shooting than having an accurate rifle and all the goodies one can buy to play with. Now, if only I could only get motivated to do some of what I have observed - - -.

I also recall watching a video of a High Power shooter in the prone position not taking his eye away from the sights orhis cheek off the stock when he was shooting his record shots; wish I could remember all of this stuff when I am trying to shoot well !

 

[crb]

I have struggled to get my my rifles to eject well .....

I really like my drop port Viper.

 

[tim in tx]

drop ports speed it up for sure

that is why i converted my remington to a drop port,i dont have to wait for the ejected round to come flying out before i reload,now as soon as the bolt opens it closes just about as fast with the new round in it. tim in tx

 

[jackie schmidt]

Manners

I have the worst bench technique in Benchrest. I get kidded about it a lot. By shooters who I have just beat.

But the one thing I never do is take my eys off of the flags.

You have fallen into that old adage that the only way to shoot Benchrest is to slam five shots down range as fast as you can.

I won't try to change any bodies mind on this.

But, how you shoot depends a lot on where you do the majority of your shooting.........jackie

 

[Kent Harshman]

Shooting Style

Jackie, I don't really think its a matter of "changing someone's mind", or "trying to convince them to shoot as a 'runner' or a 'picker'", I think its more a thing of "what works best for you". Personally speaking, I am in awe of someone that can shoot like you...and take the entire 7-minute period to shoot a group. I've watched Doc Maretzo do this on more than one occasion, and it simply makes me shake my head. Obviously, you guys see something far more keenly on the flags than I can see...you're actually shooting a SPECIFIC condition where everything lines up identically for 5 shots, while I'm trying to shoot a "flow"...and get some help from the rifle's capability. I've tried your way...and get far more "train wrecks" than I care to admit...and certainly far too many to remain competitive. I will quickly acknowledge that the way I shoot I don't get too many small groups, but my "train wrecks" are kept to a minimum. Regardless of our choice of shooting style, we are both on the same page in that we're shooting for aggregates that keep us in the hunt all weekend...and hopefully near the top when they tally up the 2-Gun...

 

[Pat B.]

I believe that being able to adapt your shooting style to the current conditions is key... It's also something that eludes me all to often!

 

[Bob Griffin]

I'm far from an expert on any of this, but one word of advice given me by my son. Don't start the next shot until you are done with this one. Whether you shoot fast or slow, do not move until the bullet is GONE..........

 

[jackie schmidt]

Pat

Yeh, there is nothing worse than sitting and staring at a great condition for about 25 seconds and saying,"why in the heck ain't I shooting".

Or, decide to start a group, and what you wanted turns into a complete reversal 8 seconds in. Knowing when to start shooting is probably as important as any other aspect of Benchrest.

Pat, I still think you are one of the best 200 yard shooters to ever sit down at the bench.

I learned something very important from you long ago. Grand Aggs and Two Guns are won at 200 yards.........jackie

 

[Pete Wass]

I think many of us

I'm far from an expert on any of this, but one word of advice given me by my son. Don't start the next shot until you are done with this one. Whether you shoot fast or slow, do not move until the bullet is GONE..........

fall victum to this very thing, I know I do. Shooting a 6 power scope, I must look through a spotting scope to see where the bullet went. I have to talk to myself to keep from jerking the trigger when I am rising up to see where it went before I have shot it.

I have come to believe that all of us could benefit greatly by having a coach watching us while we shoot. Most players in competitive sports have someone watching and critiquing their performances. I would like to have someone objective watching me now and again to tell me what I am doing wrong. Once in awhile someone will tell me when I am doing something obviously wrong. I always welcome the observations and comments.

When I am not shooting, I often watch great shooters to see if I can determine what they do differently from me, I think lots of others do the same. The one thing I have noticed that seems a common trait is their never taking their eyes off the flags when they are shooting for record.

 

[Mike Darlow]

This is what makes this sport so interesting.

I have not developed the shoot fast technique yet. Thats why I was asking for some tips on how to do it well.
I will usually spend the whole seven minutes to get my 5 shots off. But my memory is just not good enough. I find that I shoot lots of sighters this way. If I don't, then its like a coin toss.

I guess the moral of this story is:
-never loose sight of your flags.
-Try to become proficient in many techniques.