rifle twisting in the front rest/bags

J

jaychris

Guest
Those of you who shooter heavier calibers (7MM and up), how do you deal with (eliminate or otherwise) the rifle twisting in the bags during recoil? Do you clamp the ears on the rest down tighter (I don't shoot BR, so I don't know the rules there) or something else?

I figure BR shooters will know better than anybody how to setup a rifle in the bags (I shoot F-Class (Open), sometimes known as "belly benchrest" I guess :) ). I use a NEO rest and Seb rear bag, although I have several different types of rear bags. It seems like the rifle always has some amount of torque in the rest (where on recoil, the rifle twists in the front rest a bit). Other people shooting 7MM don't seem to have to deal with the issue or at least, I don't notice it when I am scoring for them. It doesn't really seem to affect accuracy/scores, but it is a bit of a pain to deal with as you have to reset after every shot. I'm using a Leonard stock, if that makes a difference.

I've tried several different things - position on the rifle, more shoulder/cheek pressure, less shoulder/cheek pressure, more densely packed bags, less densely packed bags, a combination of dense/less dense between front and rear bag, I'm careful with the way the bags are lined up. I've tried running the rifle at different positions with regards to where the forearms sits on the front rest... some things have helped and some have made no difference. I've gotten it down to where there is a minimal amount of twist, but I'd really like to get rid of it altogether if possible.

At this point, I am not sure what else to try so I'm taking suggestions if you've got them. I know this isn't strictly "Centerfire Benchrest", but that's the audience I'm looking for input from so hopefully it's OK to post this here.
 
jaychris said:
Those of you who shooter heavier calibers (7MM and up), how do you deal with (eliminate or otherwise) the rifle twisting in the bags during recoil? Do you clamp the ears on the rest down tighter (I don't shoot BR, so I don't know the rules there) or something else?

I figure BR shooters will know better than anybody how to setup a rifle in the bags (I shoot F-Class (Open), sometimes known as "belly benchrest" I guess :) ). I use a NEO rest and Seb rear bag, although I have several different types of rear bags. It seems like the rifle always has some amount of torque in the rest (where on recoil, the rifle twists in the front rest a bit). Other people shooting 7MM don't seem to have to deal with the issue or at least, I don't notice it when I am scoring for them. It doesn't really seem to affect accuracy/scores, but it is a bit of a pain to deal with as you have to reset after every shot. I'm using a Leonard stock, if that makes a difference.

I've tried several different things - position on the rifle, more shoulder/cheek pressure, less shoulder/cheek pressure, more densely packed bags, less densely packed bags, a combination of dense/less dense between front and rear bag, I'm careful with the way the bags are lined up. I've tried running the rifle at different positions with regards to where the forearms sits on the front rest... some things have helped and some have made no difference. I've gotten it down to where there is a minimal amount of twist, but I'd really like to get rid of it altogether if possible.

At this point, I am not sure what else to try so I'm taking suggestions if you've got them. I know this isn't strictly "Centerfire Benchrest", but that's the audience I'm looking for input from so hopefully it's OK to post this here.
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To start out with, if you are shooting one of the heavy recoil calipers that has a sporter style stock that has a rounded forearm it is going to twist. If you try to clamp it tight enough to eliminate even some of the twist you will not end up with the same point of impact as you would in a hunting situation shooting freehand.

If you are attempting to sight it in, learn to live with the after-shot twist and try to let the rifle recoil as freely as it would if you were shooting at game.


.
 
This is just an idea. It seems to me that the shorter your buttstock is from top to bottom, the less leverage it has to resist torque. On the other hand. the closer a stocks front bag contact area is to the Cl of the barrel, the wider the angle from the corners of the bottom of the stock through the barrel CL, and the greater the roll stability. Stock geometry that works very well for low torque applications may not do as well as torque and recoil increase. This goes for shooting styles as well. The other factors that I have identified are sand building up in the center of the of the front bag, where it contacts the stock, and the rear bag scooting a few thousandths from recoil and/or contact with the shooter. This last one can be tested by illegally fixing your rear bag so that it cannot move, for purposes of a test only.
 
JerrySharrett said:
To start out with, if you are shooting one of the heavy recoil calipers that has a sporter style stock that has a rounded forearm it is going to twist. If you try to clamp it tight enough to eliminate even some of the twist you will not end up with the same point of impact as you would in a hunting situation shooting freehand.

If you are attempting to sight it in, learn to live with the after-shot twist and try to let the rifle recoil as freely as it would if you were shooting at game.


.
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Hey JerrySharrett, no this is an F-Open rifle, fully 20+lbs, 3" forend, etc... (I think I mentioned a Leonard stock :) ).
 
Boyd Allen said:
This is just an idea. It seems to me that the shorter your buttstock is from top to bottom, the less leverage it has to resist torque. On the other hand. the closer a stocks front bag contact area is to the Cl of the barrel, the wider the angle from the corners of the bottom of the stock through the barrel CL, and the greater the roll stability. Stock geometry that works very well for low torque applications may not do as well as torque and recoil increase. This goes for shooting styles as well. The other factors that I have identified are sand building up in the center of the of the front bag, where it contacts the stock, and the rear bag scooting a few thousandths from recoil and/or contact with the shooter. This last one can be tested by illegally fixing your rear bag so that it cannot move, for purposes of a test only.
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Boyd, that's an interesting point that I never considered. The Leonard stock *does* have a narrower (top to bottom) buttstock than a typical prone stock. Your thoughts about the rear bag moving are also interesting in that I've tried a few different combinations of fill, but I am considering changing out the current fill for as heavy a fill as possible and ditto for the ears. I've done well with a lighter fill and prone stocks, but I do feel like this stock is putting a little more pressure on the rear bag during recoil (if that makes sense; maybe "pressure" is the wrong word) and might benefit from being heavier.
 
I shoot LH, and with typical RH twist barrels rifles torque away from me, but for RH shooters, the opposite is the case. I have seen a lot of pictures of prone shooters that seem to be cheeking their stocks, that would seem to help resist their rifles' torquing, particularly when done in combination with a substantial rear bag, as seems to be typical in F class. The bit about the whole bag moving slightly came from a recent discovery of mine, shooting from a bench. While enough to disrupt tracking, it was small enough that it was not obvious that the bag had moved. In my earlier post, I suggested that you secure your bag in an illegal manner to test if there is any issue with its movement. Once that has been established one way or the other, then, if needed, a means of increasing the bags traction can be investigated. I would be interested in any solution that you come up with.
 
You should get with mike ratigan and get the new bags and fixes for that rest. If you have the original bag on the front. That stock is not even close to being a good design for what youre using it for but youre gonna have to get a more substantial front bag, real sand not heavy, and its gonna have to wrap around the side tapers so you can pick up your front rest with the gun.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
You should get with mike ratigan and get the new bags and fixes for that rest. If you have the original bag on the front. That stock is not even close to being a good design for what youre using it for but youre gonna have to get a more substantial front bag, real sand not heavy, and its gonna have to wrap around the side tapers so you can pick up your front rest with the gun.
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hmmm. unfortunately, not legal - the rifle has to be able to lift out of the bags or it counts as "attached". Some Open shooters push this particular rule and I've heard stories of a match director testing for it. Not sure that I agree with "not even close to a good design for what you are using it for", but I appreciate the input.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I shoot LH, and with typical RH twist barrels rifles torque away from me, but for RH shooters, the opposite is the case. I have seen a lot of pictures of prone shooters that seem to be cheeking their stocks, that would seem to help resist their rifles' torquing, particularly when done in combination with a substantial rear bag, as seems to be typical in F class. The bit about the whole bag moving slightly came from a recent discovery of mine, shooting from a bench. While enough to disrupt tracking, it was small enough that it was not obvious that the bag had moved. In my earlier post, I suggested that you secure your bag in an illegal manner to test if there is any issue with its movement. Once that has been established one way or the other, then, if needed, a means of increasing the bags traction can be investigated. I would be interested in any solution that you come up with.
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea - I could use a C-clamp to clamp the bag down to a bench and see if there's a difference. I'm heading out to the range in a couple of days and I'll try it out. It'll be interesting either way.
 
Ive never seen a forend that wasnt clamped in tight and ive never seen anybody check. Thats why the forend is tapered up and not just straight up. Try more sand in the top over the tapered in part. If you can look thru the scope and push the forend to the side and it moves its not clamped in there right and tight. You may try a lowboy style stock so you can get the weight balance point farther back. Ive done been thru this exact situation a couple times with a couple customers with the same equipment and ratigans mods on the rest and a pr&t lowboy stock solved every problem each time. The sale of the stocks paid for the lowboys.
 
jaychris said:
Those of you who shooter heavier calibers (7MM and up), how do you deal with (eliminate or otherwise) the rifle twisting in the bags during recoil? Do you clamp the ears on the rest down tighter (I don't shoot BR, so I don't know the rules there) or something else?

I figure BR shooters will know better than anybody how to setup a rifle in the bags (I shoot F-Class (Open), sometimes known as "belly benchrest" I guess :) ). I use a NEO rest and Seb rear bag, although I have several different types of rear bags. It seems like the rifle always has some amount of torque in the rest (where on recoil, the rifle twists in the front rest a bit). Other people shooting 7MM don't seem to have to deal with the issue or at least, I don't notice it when I am scoring for them. It doesn't really seem to affect accuracy/scores, but it is a bit of a pain to deal with as you have to reset after every shot. I'm using a Leonard stock, if that makes a difference.

I've tried several different things - position on the rifle, more shoulder/cheek pressure, less shoulder/cheek pressure, more densely packed bags, less densely packed bags, a combination of dense/less dense between front and rear bag, I'm careful with the way the bags are lined up. I've tried running the rifle at different positions with regards to where the forearms sits on the front rest... some things have helped and some have made no difference. I've gotten it down to where there is a minimal amount of twist, but I'd really like to get rid of it altogether if possible.

At this point, I am not sure what else to try so I'm taking suggestions if you've got them. I know this isn't strictly "Centerfire Benchrest", but that's the audience I'm looking for input from so hopefully it's OK to post this here.
Click to expand...

Wonder if a muzzle break could be designed with angled exhaust ports to counter heavy torque recoil twisting?

Seems the best solution for this heavy torque twisting is the use of an offset barrel/action bedded rifle stock.
 
Dusty Stevens said:
Ive never seen a forend that wasnt clamped in tight and ive never seen anybody check. Thats why the forend is tapered up and not just straight up. Try more sand in the top over the tapered in part. If you can look thru the scope and push the forend to the side and it moves its not clamped in there right and tight. You may try a lowboy style stock so you can get the weight balance point farther back. Ive done been thru this exact situation a couple times with a couple customers with the same equipment and ratigans mods on the rest and a pr&t lowboy stock solved every problem each time. The sale of the stocks paid for the lowboys.
Click to expand...

Good idea, I'll give that a try. I have never seen it checked either, but I've heard a particular story from enough people that I believe it. I don't like to tempt fate anyhow. It would be just my luck to shoot a record or win a big match and then get dinged on something like that.

My rest is modded with (most of) Ratigan's updates, although I still use the original bags so I'll look into that. I used to shoot the lowboy stocks when I was shooting Barnard actions, but since sold them - they definitely win a lot of matches so I can't argue with their success. I may end up going back to them at some point, but this current stock definitely suits my shooting style and position a little more. If I figure out this twist thing, I'll be in good shape. Your suggestion on the sand is a good one and I'll definitely give it a try.
 
I think the thicker bags where you can squeeze the sand up top will solve your problem. Let us know what you come up with
 
Well, clamping down on the stock definitely resolved the issue. I dusted the bags with some carnuba wax and adjusted the sand so that it sits on "top" of the forearm a bit more, as Dusty suggested. Then I adjusted the clamping pressure down between 5 shot groups until the twist was entirely eliminated. The only catch is that at that point, lifting the rifle straight up will bring the rest with it for a moment until the weight of the rest releases it from the stock and drops it back to the ground. It's probably marginal, but as was pointed out, it seems to be one of those things that is not strictly enforced.
 
jaychris said:
The only catch is that at that point, lifting the rifle straight up will bring the rest with it for a moment until the weight of the rest releases it from the stock and drops it back to the ground. It's probably marginal, but as was pointed out, it seems to be one of those things that is not strictly enforced.
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Jay,
Sooner or later you will get in trouble breaking or bending the rules. The fix to a large degree is to build up the sides of your FC stock so they are perpendicular to the bottom of the forend. This gives more contact to the bag sides and still allows the rifle to be lifted straight up. It won't make BR rules but is OK for FC. If you don't understand my idea contact me and I'll take a picture.
 
jaychris said:
Well, clamping down on the stock definitely resolved the issue. I dusted the bags with some carnuba wax and adjusted the sand so that it sits on "top" of the forearm a bit more, as Dusty suggested. Then I adjusted the clamping pressure down between 5 shot groups until the twist was entirely eliminated. The only catch is that at that point, lifting the rifle straight up will bring the rest with it for a moment until the weight of the rest releases it from the stock and drops it back to the ground. It's probably marginal, but as was pointed out, it seems to be one of those things that is not strictly enforced.
Click to expand...

Gotta do what it takes to win. And i dont wanna hear from the "youre cheating" folks. The stock was designed that way and a gun wont shoot wobbling in the bags. Glad you got it figured out- lets move forward and solve some more problems. Put a sack of lead shot on your rest base to keep it down if somebody that dont shoot decides to slip over and pick up your gun between shots- lol
 
Or you could do like larry said on a new stock but you wont easily do it on a stock design like youre shooting. A big f class stock tho i agree with larry fully. Totally different design
 
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