Respectable Group Size

Louis Boyd said:
Dennis Sorensen wrote:
"Louis, Sorry - I might not have made myself quite clear...
It isn't the group but the aggregate that is divided...

...a .500" group at 200 yards is just that - .500"... but when you add five different 200 yard targets for the aggregate it is then divided by 2."

Lets see if I have this straight. If someone won a 200 yard match with five 5 shot groups of .48" .49" .50" .51" and .52" those would be added to give 2.50" then divided by 5 to give 0.50" then that would be divided by 2 and published as a group aggregate of 0.25" But the winning "small group" for the same match would be published as 0.48" (if no one did better).

Is it done that way for both NBSRA and IBS and only for 200 and 300 yard matches? Are 600 yard published group aggregates divided by 6 or 1000 yard published group aggregates divided by 10?
Click to expand...

It's been 35 years since I was doing this... I bet if one went to the website for IBS or NBRSA the data would be there...

it seems to me a 200 yard agg by itself was just that... it wasn't until you combined it with a 100 yard agg for a 100/200 agg that division took place...

the same when it is a 100/200/300 agg...

I give up though... the rules book will have to suffice...
 
Wind flags sure make a heck of a difference...

the use of wind flags is not common place with accuracy shooters that do not shoot benchrest.

I feel completely lost if I do not have out a flag.

I used to chase different powders, bullets, and primers, but now I realize that the wind has an increadable effect on groups for that particular day. I can remember wearing out two very good 6mm Rem barrels before I ever learned of how effective a wind flag can be.

Gosh, how stupid I felt I had been as soon as I put out my first wind flag.

This is one tid bit of truth that will set you free and save you a lot of money in components and barrels.
 
Good point, Keith

Yessir, wind flags (aka sticks with surveyor tape tied to them to us poor hillbillies) ought to get that half inch off your agg. You don't have to wait for the wind to be still, just wait for it to be the same.
My smilies ain't working neither. :(
 
Here is why I feel the way I do. These are the 200 yd scores from a match I shot last year.

.822 .993 .908 .602 .689 200 yd agg .4014

---------------------

The 5 shot average comes out to .8028, divide by 2 = .4014. I think the .8028 number should be the number shown. Just what my average was. MAYBE it is appropriate to convert to MOA when computing the grand agg. BUT ,IMO, the number shown in the score column of each yardage should be the real number. It is the real number at 100, why not 200?

For anybody that has had their feeling hurt by what I wrote in my first post I ask you to please CRY ME A RIVER .

Jeez, what a bunch of babies.
 
alinwa said:
crb, THAT STATEMENT is deluded BS and shows that you've got zero understanding of accuracy shooting, rating and scoring. I too find your deprecation insulting. UNINFORMED deprecation no less.


Measuring groups in inches instead of moa is simply stupid.


al
Click to expand...

If you have recovered from the near terminal insult, could you show me a picture of your moa caliper? I have English measure calipers and I have a metric caliper but I have never seen an MOA caliper.
 
Old Timer

You didn't mention which bullet you are using. I recommend Nosler BT's in either 50 or 55gr, Speer 50gr TnT's, or the 52gr Berger's. I haven't used N133 so I can't comment on that powder.
Like everyone else I recommend the flags, and one way to make the scope you have work is to make the target dot 1 1/2 to 2 inches so that you can see it at that distance.
Good Luck
 
crb said:
If you have recovered from the near terminal insult, could you show me a picture of your moa caliper? I have English measure calipers and I have a metric caliper but I have never seen an MOA caliper.
Click to expand...


Point taken :)

I over reacted.

Whether inches or moa I convert everything to "moa equivalent" because it levels the playing field for my peabrain......... I can quickly collate data at any yardage to see if the rifle's holding up at yardage or falling apart with range. It's easier FOR ME to backstrapolate my .254 moa (or converted inches) from a 300yd or 600yd or whatever to compare performance at yardages.

Sorry to have been over-pissyfied

al
 
Al :thumbsup:

I am going to unhijack this thread and start a new one over in the BR forum on the MOA issue. It should be interesting to see what is posted.
 
believe it or not

I am shooting some Remington 52gr Bench Rest Bullets. I also like the Sierra match kings in 52 and 53 grains. I usually start out with the flat based bullet (53grs) and let the rifle decide which one it likes.
 
I am going to purchase or manufacture some wind flags this week. Right now I am having good results with the Berger 55ggr match Hallow Points.

The flags only make sense, I feel like a numb skull for not doing this before now.

Thanks for the advice all- OT :)
 
IMHO many of the available flags leave a lot to be desired. You want frictionless rotating elements at the pivot and at the propeller. I used model airplane stuff on my flags. On one of my pivots I used a hard disc drive from a junk computer.

I use old school music stands. For my first set up I added a piece of coathanger wire as a horizontal arm with a length of surveryors ribbon.


At our club's score match yesterday the conditions were mostly very light but with constant changes in velocity and the direction would swap a bit pretty often also. Most of the flags would not even show you the changes. These small changes can kill you at 200.

I did drop a point at 200 but I did see the velocity change when I looked at the flag after the shot didn't go into the 10 ring. Most of the other guys that dropped points in that condition said they didn't see anything on their flags.
 
If you plan on "buying" some wind flags, get ready to get knocked brain dead. For something that looks like a kids toy or a lawn decoration they certainly are pricey. Thus my reference to sticks with surveyor tape. Somewhere in this forum there is a good post on how and where to position your flags. I don't know how to pull it up but the guy made it pretty plain and simple, which he would have to for me to understand it.
 
crb said:
Here is why I feel the way I do. These are the 200 yd scores from a match I shot last year.

.822 .993 .908 .602 .689 200 yd agg .4014

---------------------

The 5 shot average comes out to .8028, divide by 2 = .4014. I think the .8028 number should be the number shown. Just what my average was. MAYBE it is appropriate to convert to MOA when computing the grand agg. BUT ,IMO, the number shown in the score column of each yardage should be the real number. It is the real number at 100, why not 200?

For anybody that has had their feeling hurt by what I wrote in my first post I ask you to please CRY ME A RIVER .

Jeez, what a bunch of babies.
Click to expand...

Hey
I am also insulted by being called a baby.
Ted
 
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