O
Old Timer
Guest
I have been trying to get this 700 Tactical to shoot better and better. I am starting to wonder what is a respectable group size for a .223 at 200 yds. At what point should I be satisfied ?
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
I would think if everything is right 1 inch groups at 200 yards are obtainable with a factory rifle. They are individuals though and I bet someone will will have one doing better as well as there are worse...
O
Old Timer
Guest
OK Then, its back to the bench with a better scope, trigger, better brass and sone n-133.
L
Louis Boyd
Guest
Could yoiu explain how shooting 5 groups of five shots each with an average group size of 1.00" is a .500 Agg? Sounds like a 1.00 Agg to me.
C
Clifdweller77
Guest
1" at 200 is .5MOA
Sam
Sam
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hecksf
Guest
What Sam is trying to say is that the agg or aggregate of the 5 groups is stated in MOA or Minute of Angle, which is approximately equal to 1 inch at 100 yards.
So if 1 inch at 100 yards is equal to 1 MOA then 1 inch at 200 yards is equal to .500 MOA or 1/2 Minute of Angle
Although to confuse things a bit, 1 MOA is actually equal to 1.04719755119 inches or if you use metric 1 MOA at 100 meters = 2.90888208665 centimeters.
Ted
Also this is my experience and that is only anecdotal. But there is a difference between having a gun that will shoot .5 MOA and actually shooting the gun at .5 MOA.
I have several guns that can shoot .15 MOA. I know this because I have shot them this well on an indoor range. But I can't shoot them that well out of doors.
There is really more to shooting tiny groups than just putting the rifle on a steady rest, aligning the cross hairs the same each time and pulling the trigger.
That thing called the wind will really mess you up. A lot more than most people think.
Lets say you are shooting a .224 diameter BT bullet weighing 52 grains at 3200 fps and you pull the trigger with a gentle 5-mph wind at about 20 degrees off of your left shoulder. Then on the next shot you pull the trigger with the same point of aim but that gentle 5 mph wind made a minor switch from the left to the same 20 degree angle but to the right. Theoretically the 2nd bullet will land about .42 inches to the right of the first bullet. And that is in a gentle 5-mph wind. What if that wind made a slight gust to 10-mph during one of those trigger pulls? that will add 50 % on to the bullet dispersions now your first 2 bullets are not .42 inches apart but .63 inches apart.
Then add in the .5 MOA that the gun and ammunition is capable of. Now you are shooting groups of about 1.13 inches at 100 yard and you still have to shoot 3 more bullets. And it just gets harder at 200 yards because the bullet is decelerating as it goes down range witch makes it more susceptible to the wind and if you didn't hold the gun exactly the same on each shot or you load isn't just right you have to worry about vertical so all of the sudden you are shoot groups of about 2.5 inches at 200 yards.
So in the end I say if you can ACTUALLY and consistently shoot 1.3 inch 5 group aggs (.565 MOA) out of doors at 200 yards with anything short of a true BR rifle you are doing Really good. If you can get that down to 1 inch (.5 MOA)at 200 yards you are doing great.
IF you can shoot aggs sub .300 MOA at 200 EVERY time you go shoot then you will be in the running at a lot of BR matches and will be competitive at the national level.
THis doesn't count that really good group that you get to go in every now and then. Even a monkey like me shoots a good group every now and then.
Heck I have a .096 and .098 hanging on the wall of my garage and I can't even run at the top of my local range much less my region or the nation.
So just because you don't shoot a 1/2 MOA every time you go to the bench it doesn't mean your gun is broken.
Ted
So if 1 inch at 100 yards is equal to 1 MOA then 1 inch at 200 yards is equal to .500 MOA or 1/2 Minute of Angle
Although to confuse things a bit, 1 MOA is actually equal to 1.04719755119 inches or if you use metric 1 MOA at 100 meters = 2.90888208665 centimeters.
Ted
Also this is my experience and that is only anecdotal. But there is a difference between having a gun that will shoot .5 MOA and actually shooting the gun at .5 MOA.
I have several guns that can shoot .15 MOA. I know this because I have shot them this well on an indoor range. But I can't shoot them that well out of doors.
There is really more to shooting tiny groups than just putting the rifle on a steady rest, aligning the cross hairs the same each time and pulling the trigger.
That thing called the wind will really mess you up. A lot more than most people think.
Lets say you are shooting a .224 diameter BT bullet weighing 52 grains at 3200 fps and you pull the trigger with a gentle 5-mph wind at about 20 degrees off of your left shoulder. Then on the next shot you pull the trigger with the same point of aim but that gentle 5 mph wind made a minor switch from the left to the same 20 degree angle but to the right. Theoretically the 2nd bullet will land about .42 inches to the right of the first bullet. And that is in a gentle 5-mph wind. What if that wind made a slight gust to 10-mph during one of those trigger pulls? that will add 50 % on to the bullet dispersions now your first 2 bullets are not .42 inches apart but .63 inches apart.
Then add in the .5 MOA that the gun and ammunition is capable of. Now you are shooting groups of about 1.13 inches at 100 yard and you still have to shoot 3 more bullets. And it just gets harder at 200 yards because the bullet is decelerating as it goes down range witch makes it more susceptible to the wind and if you didn't hold the gun exactly the same on each shot or you load isn't just right you have to worry about vertical so all of the sudden you are shoot groups of about 2.5 inches at 200 yards.
So in the end I say if you can ACTUALLY and consistently shoot 1.3 inch 5 group aggs (.565 MOA) out of doors at 200 yards with anything short of a true BR rifle you are doing Really good. If you can get that down to 1 inch (.5 MOA)at 200 yards you are doing great.
IF you can shoot aggs sub .300 MOA at 200 EVERY time you go shoot then you will be in the running at a lot of BR matches and will be competitive at the national level.
THis doesn't count that really good group that you get to go in every now and then. Even a monkey like me shoots a good group every now and then.
Heck I have a .096 and .098 hanging on the wall of my garage and I can't even run at the top of my local range much less my region or the nation.
So just because you don't shoot a 1/2 MOA every time you go to the bench it doesn't mean your gun is broken.
Ted
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L
Louis Boyd
Guest
Yes, but it's my understanding that aggregates are measured in inches at the target at any distance, not in MOA.
Not in BR [ which in my opinion is self deluding, feel good BS ].
H
hecksf
Guest
they are measured in inches but recorded in MOA.
When you look at the results the Small group will be listed in inches but the Agg should be recorded in MOA. that is why at some matches the 200 yard numbers may look smaller than the 100 yard numbers. because the aggs were recorded in MOA.
It seems odd but that is the way we do it.
IF you go to this post and look at the 200 yard Sporter results you will see that the small group was Allen Condiff with a .277 but the winning agg was a smaller .2326
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52980
The reason that the agg is SMALLER than the smallest group is because the AGG is calculated in MOA not by actual group size in inches.
Groups are measured in inches but the AGG is MOA
That way we can compare MOA at different distances.
Ted
When you look at the results the Small group will be listed in inches but the Agg should be recorded in MOA. that is why at some matches the 200 yard numbers may look smaller than the 100 yard numbers. because the aggs were recorded in MOA.
It seems odd but that is the way we do it.
IF you go to this post and look at the 200 yard Sporter results you will see that the small group was Allen Condiff with a .277 but the winning agg was a smaller .2326
http://benchrest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52980
The reason that the agg is SMALLER than the smallest group is because the AGG is calculated in MOA not by actual group size in inches.
Groups are measured in inches but the AGG is MOA
That way we can compare MOA at different distances.
Ted
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H
hecksf
Guest
And by the way I don't think it is self deluding BS
No BR shooter that I know tricks his or herself into thinking that we are shooting .23 inch groups when we get a .23 agg at 300 yards. We know that we are shooting groups 3 times that size.
That is just the way we keep the records and do the math. But it isn't self deluding BS.
I don't go to the Team Room on monday after the match and say "hey I shot a .5 group at 1000 yards" because I ended with a .5 aggregate. I know that what really happened is I shot 5 groups that averaged 5 inches and we divided by 10 for the aggregate.
Now I can compare the MOA of my 1000 yard groups against the MOA of my 200, 300, 600 or 100 yard groups. But no real BR shooter is tricking himself or herself with these numbers.
I consider your remark to be an insult.
If you aren't sure how I feel about you right now you can always ask.
I do feel good when I shoot a .23 agg at any distance but I am not deluding myself. And I wouldn't lie to you about it. If you had a question about how that is measured and recorded I would explain it to you.
Ted
D
Dennis Sorensen
Guest
First of all it is not minute of angle... it is measured in thousands of an inch at 100 yards, 200 yards, 300 yards, etc. ... when the groups are shot at 200 and 300 yards, they are divided by 2 and 3 respectively so that the aggregates can be combined and make sense...
It isn't a feel good way of doing it, it is the only practical way to combine different distance aggregates ...
A lot of people think it is m.o.a.... in fact it is approximately m.o.a.
It isn't a feel good way of doing it, it is the only practical way to combine different distance aggregates ...
A lot of people think it is m.o.a.... in fact it is approximately m.o.a.
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hecksf
Guest
Dennis is correct, it is approximate.
I also agree with Alan
I would do much better measuring my groups in feet as opposed to inches.
I also agree with Alan
I would do much better measuring my groups in feet as opposed to inches.
L
Louis Boyd
Guest
Thanks Dennis. I learn something new every day. I'd never realized that the 200 and 300 yard published groups are divided by 2 and 3. My interest is in 1000 yard shooting. The 1000 yard aggregates are not divide by 10. Not in IBS or FCSA anyway.
0.5 MOA can be a very respectable group aggregate. It would win any FCSA match and set a new worlds record. The current FCSA six target aggregate world record (5 shots per target) is 6.562" shot by Lee Rasmuson in 2005. That's at 1000 yards with a 50 BMG heavy class rifle.
Louis, Sorry - I might not have made myself quite clear...
It isn't the group but the aggregate that is divided...
...a .500" group at 200 yards is just that - .500"... but when you add five different 200 yard targets for the aggregate it is then divided by 2...
Dennis
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hecksf
Guest
"0.5 MOA can be a very respectable group aggregate. It would win any FCSA match and set a new worlds record. The current FCSA six target aggregate world record (5 shots per target) is 6.562" shot by Lee Rasmuson in 2005. That's at 1000 yards with a 50 BMG heavy class rifle."
I just used .5 because the math was easy.
Ted
I just used .5 because the math was easy.
Ted
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L
Louis Boyd
Guest
Dennis Sorensen wrote:
"Louis, Sorry - I might not have made myself quite clear...
It isn't the group but the aggregate that is divided...
...a .500" group at 200 yards is just that - .500"... but when you add five different 200 yard targets for the aggregate it is then divided by 2."
Lets see if I have this straight. If someone won a 200 yard match with five 5 shot groups of .48" .49" .50" .51" and .52" those would be added to give 2.50" then divided by 5 to give 0.50" then that would be divided by 2 and published as a group aggregate of 0.25" But the winning "small group" for the same match would be published as 0.48" (if no one did better).
Is it done that way for both NBSRA and IBS and only for 200 and 300 yard matches? Are 600 yard published group aggregates divided by 6 or 1000 yard published group aggregates divided by 10?
"Louis, Sorry - I might not have made myself quite clear...
It isn't the group but the aggregate that is divided...
...a .500" group at 200 yards is just that - .500"... but when you add five different 200 yard targets for the aggregate it is then divided by 2."
Lets see if I have this straight. If someone won a 200 yard match with five 5 shot groups of .48" .49" .50" .51" and .52" those would be added to give 2.50" then divided by 5 to give 0.50" then that would be divided by 2 and published as a group aggregate of 0.25" But the winning "small group" for the same match would be published as 0.48" (if no one did better).
Is it done that way for both NBSRA and IBS and only for 200 and 300 yard matches? Are 600 yard published group aggregates divided by 6 or 1000 yard published group aggregates divided by 10?
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expiper
Broken down Plumber
dont complicate it!!
Here is how "most" NBRSA events did the math ...before computers were around...
Target 1 --.480
Target 2 --.490
Target 3 --.500
Target 4 --.510
Target 5 --.520
Total-- 2.500 --then move the decimal pt. to the left (divide by 10)
.2500 is the agg. at 200....if the targets were fired at 100yds the number wuld be doubled ....no calculator or high math involved...just add em up and double the number at 100 and not at 200....hope this clears up the way it is done out in the fresh air..ahha......Roger
eidt ...grrrr ,.,,,I had the colums all lined up when I typed them in...the puter jumbled em up on me....You can see why us dinosaurs did it the easy way with a No. 2 lead pencil...hahaahhaah
OBTW...this shows you why there is never an odd number agg. at 100yds...because when you add two even or odd numbers you always get an even!!!,,,,think abut it. Look at the scores next time you are at a match...or read abut one in a magazine.
Here is how "most" NBRSA events did the math ...before computers were around...
Target 1 --.480
Target 2 --.490
Target 3 --.500
Target 4 --.510
Target 5 --.520
Total-- 2.500 --then move the decimal pt. to the left (divide by 10)
.2500 is the agg. at 200....if the targets were fired at 100yds the number wuld be doubled ....no calculator or high math involved...just add em up and double the number at 100 and not at 200....hope this clears up the way it is done out in the fresh air..ahha......Roger
eidt ...grrrr ,.,,,I had the colums all lined up when I typed them in...the puter jumbled em up on me....You can see why us dinosaurs did it the easy way with a No. 2 lead pencil...hahaahhaah
OBTW...this shows you why there is never an odd number agg. at 100yds...because when you add two even or odd numbers you always get an even!!!,,,,think abut it. Look at the scores next time you are at a match...or read abut one in a magazine.
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beemanbeme
Guest
Wow, you guys get testy.
Have you tried some h335 in that .223? It's good for shooting .5 MOA aggs but not 1" group aggs (sorry I couldn't help myself)
If you can shoot a 1" agg at 200 yards with an unmodified factory rifle, you'll win most of the factory matches you enter. IMO.
Have you tried some h335 in that .223? It's good for shooting .5 MOA aggs but not 1" group aggs (sorry I couldn't help myself)
If you can shoot a 1" agg at 200 yards with an unmodified factory rifle, you'll win most of the factory matches you enter. IMO.
O
Old Timer
Guest
Group Size
Darn, all you fellas are makin my little head hurt. I think I am going to get me some n133 and a new scope. Using 18 power now and cant hardly see the aiming point at 200yds. Right now I am at 1.5" at 200. By the way, my smiles are not working, anyone else having this problem.
Anyway Thanks for the help - OT
Darn, all you fellas are makin my little head hurt.
I think I am going to get me some n133 and a new scope. Using 18 power now and cant hardly see the aiming point at 200yds. Right now I am at 1.5" at 200. By the way, my smiles are not working, anyone else having this problem. Anyway Thanks for the help - OT