J
Jeffreytooker
Guest
What are the technical deficiencies of a barrel fit in the Savage manner (with the nut) as opposed to those fit in the Remington manner with no nut.
Jeffrey Tooker
Jeffrey Tooker
From an accuracy standpoint the barrel nut precludes positive barrel index/lockup.
In other words, while Savages are "the most accurate thing going" as far as out-of-the-box accuracy they will never be REALLY accurate, like BR accurate, without you eliminate the nut lockup system and make them like a Remington.
(This oughtta' get the Savage fan-boys up and howling...
)
al
In other words, while Savages are "the most accurate thing going" as far as out-of-the-box accuracy they will never be REALLY accurate, like BR accurate, without you eliminate the nut lockup system and make them like a Remington.
(This oughtta' get the Savage fan-boys up and howling...
)al
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Del Martin
Guest
remsav
Al,
You are absolutely right. However, sometimes it is about money. I can buy a barrel and screw it on to my rifle for roughly half what you will spend having a BR gunsmith fit and chamber one. Mine will shoot in the .3's with a good varmint bullet and if you are lucky you shoot in the .2's if we are talking remington action.
I know this is the benchrest forum but in the field shooting sage rats it doesn't make any difference. I have two remington rifles done this way and they shoot in the .3's. Reading wind flags makes more difference that barrel nuts.
Del
Al,
You are absolutely right. However, sometimes it is about money. I can buy a barrel and screw it on to my rifle for roughly half what you will spend having a BR gunsmith fit and chamber one. Mine will shoot in the .3's with a good varmint bullet and if you are lucky you shoot in the .2's if we are talking remington action.
I know this is the benchrest forum but in the field shooting sage rats it doesn't make any difference. I have two remington rifles done this way and they shoot in the .3's. Reading wind flags makes more difference that barrel nuts.
Del
Attachments
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caroby
Guest
Nut/No-nut...................
Cool cool COOL...!!!!!!!!!!
Nice "nut" on that Rem Del...!
Ha..! Really..! Nice.
Pro/Con.........
Pro:
Cheaper to go with High End barrel pre chambered and screw it on, headspace
.....Go Shoot..!
Con:
Limit on diameter of contour for prefit.......... Availability of competent Smiths for general accuracy shooters for the fitted barrel... 150.00 to 200.00 on the low end for a reasonably priced fitted barrel. > $200.00 for most competent Smiths.... Gets expensive fast for non-Benchrest barrel work.. Still a good deal in my book..
Pro:
The nut >>>IMOP<<< provides FIRM Thread tenon contact and more total thread area or tenon support.... Stiff.
Con:
Some think ugly.......
Unless one has a modified nut wrench, one has to not only take off the stock but the scope as well to switch out barrels.
Pro:
Fitted barrels make fast switch barrel rifles...
Pre fit/Nut barrels one can switch barrels to different rifles (Savages / Rems with Nut & same thread TPI) of the same bolt face.
Con:
Pre-fit barrels are SO popular with the accuracy minded Varmint getters/paper punchers that waits can be lengthy with many Highend Barrel makers.
Pro:
Generally Barrel blanks are obtained in 4-8 weeks from the makers. But Good Guy's like Lester Bruno and Ron Hoehn and others can get ya a barrel shipped in a jiffy (for most popular twists/contours)...
There are many growing suppliers offering pre-fits in supply ready to ship ASAP.... I'd Bet Lester will get into this GROWING market as well...!
It's a wash........ IMOP... Both WILL provide ACCURACY.
So...
If ya got a competent Smith "handy" or you do your own work, Fitted barrel..
If new to accuracy/don't know a good smith, or live "way out" ... Get a Savage and order a High End pre-fit barrel... Bug Holes..!
Benchrest.......... Well ya'll know what to go with..
Reading wind flags makes more difference that barrel nuts.
Del
YES.............Thumbs up Del.. You Tell'em!
cale
Cool cool COOL...!!!!!!!!!!
Nice "nut" on that Rem Del...!
Ha..! Really..! Nice.
Pro/Con.........
Pro:
Cheaper to go with High End barrel pre chambered and screw it on, headspace
.....Go Shoot..!
Con:
Limit on diameter of contour for prefit.......... Availability of competent Smiths for general accuracy shooters for the fitted barrel... 150.00 to 200.00 on the low end for a reasonably priced fitted barrel. > $200.00 for most competent Smiths.... Gets expensive fast for non-Benchrest barrel work.. Still a good deal in my book..
Pro:
The nut >>>IMOP<<< provides FIRM Thread tenon contact and more total thread area or tenon support.... Stiff.
Con:
Some think ugly.......
Unless one has a modified nut wrench, one has to not only take off the stock but the scope as well to switch out barrels.
Pro:
Fitted barrels make fast switch barrel rifles...
Pre fit/Nut barrels one can switch barrels to different rifles (Savages / Rems with Nut & same thread TPI) of the same bolt face.
Con:
Pre-fit barrels are SO popular with the accuracy minded Varmint getters/paper punchers that waits can be lengthy with many Highend Barrel makers.
Pro:
Generally Barrel blanks are obtained in 4-8 weeks from the makers. But Good Guy's like Lester Bruno and Ron Hoehn and others can get ya a barrel shipped in a jiffy (for most popular twists/contours)...
There are many growing suppliers offering pre-fits in supply ready to ship ASAP.... I'd Bet Lester will get into this GROWING market as well...!
It's a wash........ IMOP... Both WILL provide ACCURACY.
So...
If ya got a competent Smith "handy" or you do your own work, Fitted barrel..
If new to accuracy/don't know a good smith, or live "way out" ... Get a Savage and order a High End pre-fit barrel... Bug Holes..!
Benchrest.......... Well ya'll know what to go with..
Reading wind flags makes more difference that barrel nuts.
Del
YES.............Thumbs up Del.. You Tell'em!
cale
A
AVanGorder
Guest
(This oughtta' get the Savage fan-boys up and howling...
al
If I wasn't so tired.....
jackie schmidt
New member
Hmmmm
Let's look at this from the standpoint of what the thread does.
It secures the barrel to the action so that no movement can occurr.
If properly tightened, there is no reason why a thread made up with a jam nut will not be as secure as one made up with a shoulder.
In reality, the face of the nut simply takes the place of the shoulder.
As with all threads, it helps if all surfaces are square and truly straight with each other..........jackie
Let's look at this from the standpoint of what the thread does.
It secures the barrel to the action so that no movement can occurr.
If properly tightened, there is no reason why a thread made up with a jam nut will not be as secure as one made up with a shoulder.
In reality, the face of the nut simply takes the place of the shoulder.
As with all threads, it helps if all surfaces are square and truly straight with each other..........jackie
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quandary
Guest
(This oughtta' get the Savage fan-boys up and howling... )
al[/QUOTE]
I replaced my stock .223 barrel with the nut (Sierra bullets, fives and sixes), with a Hart HV barrel without it and it shot better (Fowler bullets, twos and threes). Must'a been the nut, I'm thinkin'.
)al[/QUOTE]
I replaced my stock .223 barrel with the nut (Sierra bullets, fives and sixes), with a Hart HV barrel without it and it shot better (Fowler bullets, twos and threes). Must'a been the nut, I'm thinkin'.
jackie schmidt
New member
What??
You don't think it might have been that heart tube, and the custom bullets???...........jackie
You don't think it might have been that heart tube, and the custom bullets???
...........jackie
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caroby
Guest
Adjustable Chamber Headspace
Yes.....
Jackie, I'm not stating the Nut or "floating headspace" as I term the Savage pre-fit barreling system as a better system as far as mating a barrel on a action.
Just that not only for ease of manufacturing but for a means of setting and or fine tuning the headspace is a nice option and that additional thread contact >>> if all is staight<<< makes for an additionally solid lock-up of action/barrel.
Question..?
Do you think there is any advantage to a "floating headspace".. A barrel mated to an action so one can adjust the headspace .001 or two back or forward..Then lock in place.. ? It can be tough to hit "DEAD NUTS" the exact headspacing your aiming for. This for a fitted barrel. The reamer need only JUST "bite" to gain a thousand or two to the final headspace.... I find on my fitted barrels (especially for my BR guns) That if I'm + or - .001 of desired headspace, I breath a sigh of relief. Heck, I have once created +.002 on one barrel just "lightly" polishing out the chamber... It shot well... Got a Grand Agg win at Mooreland, OK with this barrel...
A floating headspace or adjustable nut or even precise shims to get the desired headspace "Dead Nuts" would help the machinist and shooter..?.. is just a thought. Not that a Competent Gunsmiths can not hit the headspace "Dead Nuts" most every time...
Just curious Jackie... As well as ALL other Benchrest Smiths that frequent Benchrest Central...
Sorry Mr. Tooker.... Don't mean to Hijack your thread..
cale
Yes.....
Jackie, I'm not stating the Nut or "floating headspace" as I term the Savage pre-fit barreling system as a better system as far as mating a barrel on a action.
Just that not only for ease of manufacturing but for a means of setting and or fine tuning the headspace is a nice option and that additional thread contact >>> if all is staight<<< makes for an additionally solid lock-up of action/barrel.
Question..?
Do you think there is any advantage to a "floating headspace".. A barrel mated to an action so one can adjust the headspace .001 or two back or forward..Then lock in place.. ? It can be tough to hit "DEAD NUTS" the exact headspacing your aiming for. This for a fitted barrel. The reamer need only JUST "bite" to gain a thousand or two to the final headspace.... I find on my fitted barrels (especially for my BR guns) That if I'm + or - .001 of desired headspace, I breath a sigh of relief. Heck, I have once created +.002 on one barrel just "lightly" polishing out the chamber
... It shot well... Got a Grand Agg win at Mooreland, OK with this barrel...A floating headspace or adjustable nut or even precise shims to get the desired headspace "Dead Nuts" would help the machinist and shooter..?.. is just a thought. Not that a Competent Gunsmiths can not hit the headspace "Dead Nuts" most every time...
Just curious Jackie... As well as ALL other Benchrest Smiths that frequent Benchrest Central...
Sorry Mr. Tooker.... Don't mean to Hijack your thread..
cale
J
Jeffreytooker
Guest
The thread is not hijacked Carobe
Actually this thread is going fine. I have read both of your posts. I agree with your conclusion that it is a "wash". That is the reason that I posted the question. I took a Hart take off barrel (308 Win 788 Rem) to my local smith. I asked him to rechamber it to 30 BR (Robinett .330") neck, and fit it to my 12BVSS Savage and use no nut. He thought about it for a few minutes and said he could do the job. He is also making me a chamber stub guage for adjusting my dies. I own half of the reamer and headspace guages (from PTG). I can use the barrel for fireform if nothing else. My biggest reason for doing this is that I want to see what the smith can do. The smith has only had his shop open in our small town for a little while, and as far as I know he has never been given any BR grade work. If he does good chambering work I am ahead. He can take a blank which I can get in 3-5 weeks and chamber it either way I want. If not I wait 12-16 weeks for a barrel out of Schilen or someone else. If he can do a barrel with a no nut fit I have more options as far a barrel dimensions. I shoot club matches, no weight restrictions. I know for some a no nut barrel fit on a Savage is heresy.
I agree with your term "floating head space". In my layman's mind headspace is a chamber depth between the go and the nogo guage for a Particularly defined cartridge. The chamber will accept all properly manufactured new loaded cartridges of that particularly defined cartridge. This is good for the safety of the general public. BR shooters and reloaders use fireformed cases assigned (mated) to one particular rifle. If the headspace is out of the absolute standard by .003" ( 0 +/_ .0015") it will change case length and case volume but only very very slightly. I think this diffrence would be covered when the rifle is load tuned. So as long as the chamber is between the go and the nogo guages how much change is there in the performance of the cartridge fired in a chamber which is io the long end or the short end. So is dead nuts head space necessary for cartridge performance or just to meet an exact standard?
Jeffrey Tooker
Actually this thread is going fine. I have read both of your posts. I agree with your conclusion that it is a "wash". That is the reason that I posted the question. I took a Hart take off barrel (308 Win 788 Rem) to my local smith. I asked him to rechamber it to 30 BR (Robinett .330") neck, and fit it to my 12BVSS Savage and use no nut. He thought about it for a few minutes and said he could do the job. He is also making me a chamber stub guage for adjusting my dies. I own half of the reamer and headspace guages (from PTG). I can use the barrel for fireform if nothing else. My biggest reason for doing this is that I want to see what the smith can do. The smith has only had his shop open in our small town for a little while, and as far as I know he has never been given any BR grade work. If he does good chambering work I am ahead. He can take a blank which I can get in 3-5 weeks and chamber it either way I want. If not I wait 12-16 weeks for a barrel out of Schilen or someone else. If he can do a barrel with a no nut fit I have more options as far a barrel dimensions. I shoot club matches, no weight restrictions. I know for some a no nut barrel fit on a Savage is heresy.
I agree with your term "floating head space". In my layman's mind headspace is a chamber depth between the go and the nogo guage for a Particularly defined cartridge. The chamber will accept all properly manufactured new loaded cartridges of that particularly defined cartridge. This is good for the safety of the general public. BR shooters and reloaders use fireformed cases assigned (mated) to one particular rifle. If the headspace is out of the absolute standard by .003" ( 0 +/_ .0015") it will change case length and case volume but only very very slightly. I think this diffrence would be covered when the rifle is load tuned. So as long as the chamber is between the go and the nogo guages how much change is there in the performance of the cartridge fired in a chamber which is io the long end or the short end. So is dead nuts head space necessary for cartridge performance or just to meet an exact standard?
Jeffrey Tooker
Well, no it's really not a wash
For extreme accuracy it's important that the joint not be allowed to move from the unloading force generated by firing. The square-cut INTEGRAL SHOULDER on a fitted barrel accomplishes this while the nut does not.
In a nutted-only system THERE IS NO SHOULDER, the nut does act as a shoulder but the threads within it can and will still unload.
Believe me, I love the Savage system for a variety of reasons but cannot in good conscience advocate it for EXTREME ACCURACY.......
al
For extreme accuracy it's important that the joint not be allowed to move from the unloading force generated by firing. The square-cut INTEGRAL SHOULDER on a fitted barrel accomplishes this while the nut does not.
In a nutted-only system THERE IS NO SHOULDER, the nut does act as a shoulder but the threads within it can and will still unload.
Believe me, I love the Savage system for a variety of reasons but cannot in good conscience advocate it for EXTREME ACCURACY.......
al
jackie schmidt
New member
Cale
I take great pains to insure all of my Competition Rifles heaspace exactly the same,mainly so I can interchange brass.
In reality, it is not as easy as you would think. There are variables, not only in measuring, (amagine that, a machinist admitting that every measurement is not to .00001), and I have been known to take a barrel off, set it back up, and correct any minor difference.
I still see no detrement to a barrel nut for "extreme accuracy". As I stated before, if properly insatlled, the joint should be as secure as any other.
Maybe somebody like Jerry Stiller, who has a lot of knowledge about this sort of thing, could chime in.........jackie
I take great pains to insure all of my Competition Rifles heaspace exactly the same,mainly so I can interchange brass.
In reality, it is not as easy as you would think. There are variables, not only in measuring, (amagine that, a machinist admitting that every measurement is not to .00001), and I have been known to take a barrel off, set it back up, and correct any minor difference.
I still see no detrement to a barrel nut for "extreme accuracy". As I stated before, if properly insatlled, the joint should be as secure as any other.
Maybe somebody like Jerry Stiller, who has a lot of knowledge about this sort of thing, could chime in.........jackie
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caroby
Guest
loaded up
Hum.... Never thought through firing that unloading can start to occur....
Mabe why Savage puts stupid torque on the nut... Seems like it.. Yes, there are other reasons why the nut can seem REALLY tight.
Will say I have not experienced any movement of my tightened barrel nuts, POI shifts or a degrade in accuracy due to potential thread unload.
Fitted barrel and a tight lock-up for Benchrest barrels >>keep the threads tight and "loaded-up"<< ... I originally tightened my barrels with a fine rap of the action wrench.... Now, with a rear entry ation wrench and a T handle, I give a good torque then a final tug that serves as a thread loading.
Seems to work fine.. I still take my scopes off my BR guns especially when taking the barrel off... This typically requires a more sharp rap to unload the threads ... These scopes need all the help they can get..! Even for a March...! $$$ Especially for a March....$$$
Lube those tenon threads ya'll....!
cale
Well, no it's really not a wash
For extreme accuracy it's important that the joint not be allowed to move from the unloading force generated by firing. The square-cut INTEGRAL SHOULDER on a fitted barrel accomplishes this while the nut does not.
In a nutted-only system THERE IS NO SHOULDER, the nut does act as a shoulder but the threads within it can and will still unload.
Believe me, I love the Savage system for a variety of reasons but cannot in good conscience advocate it for EXTREME ACCURACY.......
al
Hum.... Never thought through firing that unloading can start to occur....
Mabe why Savage puts stupid torque on the nut... Seems like it.. Yes, there are other reasons why the nut can seem REALLY tight.
Will say I have not experienced any movement of my tightened barrel nuts, POI shifts or a degrade in accuracy due to potential thread unload.
Fitted barrel and a tight lock-up for Benchrest barrels >>keep the threads tight and "loaded-up"<< ... I originally tightened my barrels with a fine rap of the action wrench.... Now, with a rear entry ation wrench and a T handle, I give a good torque then a final tug that serves as a thread loading.
Seems to work fine.. I still take my scopes off my BR guns especially when taking the barrel off... This typically requires a more sharp rap to unload the threads ... These scopes need all the help they can get..! Even for a March...! $$$ Especially for a March....$$$
Lube those tenon threads ya'll....!
cale
unloading during firing
Well.... I am not a gunsmith and I am at best a beginner in the BR world... but the unloading that occurs on the threads of the barrel is the same in nutted versus an std shoulder barreled provided they both are tourqued to the same level. I have watch BR shooters spins barrels on and off their custom actions and I never saw a wrench putting heavy load on the threads. Everyone describes it as the "clunck" when it seats correct on the actions. Apparently another technical BR term I have yet to master. I have taken the nuts off of some Savage barrels that have massive tourque based on what was required to set them free. I have switched the barrels on my Savages probably 50 times (it is a disease) and I have never had one come lose.
The load and unloading seems to me to be on the barrel/action threads. The nut only provides a stop point where loading begins on the barrel threads. I guess you would have to say that it occurs on the nut threads as well so you would have much potential for loading/unloading with a nut. But, a Savage has 20 TPI which should help reduce that.
I am drawing these conclusions from my understanding of Vaugnn's book, Rifle Accuracy Facts. I certainly may be misunderstanding what I read.
tiny
Well.... I am not a gunsmith and I am at best a beginner in the BR world... but the unloading that occurs on the threads of the barrel is the same in nutted versus an std shoulder barreled provided they both are tourqued to the same level. I have watch BR shooters spins barrels on and off their custom actions and I never saw a wrench putting heavy load on the threads. Everyone describes it as the "clunck" when it seats correct on the actions. Apparently another technical BR term I have yet to master. I have taken the nuts off of some Savage barrels that have massive tourque based on what was required to set them free. I have switched the barrels on my Savages probably 50 times (it is a disease) and I have never had one come lose.
The load and unloading seems to me to be on the barrel/action threads. The nut only provides a stop point where loading begins on the barrel threads. I guess you would have to say that it occurs on the nut threads as well so you would have much potential for loading/unloading with a nut. But, a Savage has 20 TPI which should help reduce that.
I am drawing these conclusions from my understanding of Vaugnn's book, Rifle Accuracy Facts. I certainly may be misunderstanding what I read.
tiny
tiny,
If you've read Vaughn and looked at his pictures then you'll see that the first two threads take most of the bearing while the rearmost (furthest from the butt joint) are just hanging in space....... The joint COULD pivot one these two-three threads but it's kept from doing so by the faced surfaces of the action and barrel. Under high unloading pressure even this joint will move! Laterally.....
In the nutted system BOTH ENDS are open, there is no integral butting surface, just two open-ended nuts butted together......so the barrel joint can and does pivot, move around.
Anybody wants to build a BR gun this way HAVE AT IT! and it'll win some too..... inferior stuff wins every day..... less though than it used to!
LOL
al
If you've read Vaughn and looked at his pictures then you'll see that the first two threads take most of the bearing while the rearmost (furthest from the butt joint) are just hanging in space....... The joint COULD pivot one these two-three threads but it's kept from doing so by the faced surfaces of the action and barrel. Under high unloading pressure even this joint will move! Laterally.....
In the nutted system BOTH ENDS are open, there is no integral butting surface, just two open-ended nuts butted together......so the barrel joint can and does pivot, move around.
Anybody wants to build a BR gun this way HAVE AT IT!
and it'll win some too..... inferior stuff wins every day..... less though than it used to! LOL
al
jackie schmidt
New member
Al
I am beginning to think that when you were in grade school, a bully with the nickname "savage" kept taking your lunch money..........jackie
I am beginning to think that when you were in grade school, a bully with the nickname "savage" kept taking your lunch money.
.........jackieI am beginning to think that when you were in grade school, a bully with the nickname "savage" kept taking your lunch money.
HEY!!! I LIKE Savages! And I really tried to get someone to set up a savage style barrel for my monster BAT. It's got a 1.125 barrel tenon so it doesn't leave much shoulder on 1.250 barrels. I even got a lathe just to play with this idea....
About that time somebody finally got it through my thick head as to WHY it's silly.
I say leave the nut to the factory Savages....with them you can adjust the headspace and make the guns shoot better, better than anything else factory. If I had ONE CHANCE to go buy a factory rifle, take it to a factory match and there was real money on the table I'd gamble on a Savage. With money as no object, still the Savage. I've personally shot several of them that flat out made a liar out of me.... guns that shot (and shoot and AGG) around 1/2 inch.
But try to get one to agg under a quarter
Shoot one next to a crispy-tuned PPC......
al
A
AVanGorder
Guest
I am beginning to think that when you were in grade school, a bully with the nickname "savage" kept taking your lunch money.
That's Funny!!!
P
pacecil
Guest
The "unloading" that concerns some people here (alinwa) would actually be greater in the barrel with a shoulder. When analyzing a threaded joint the components are treated as springs, which they are in fact. The "spring rate" for the nut as compared to the shoulder simply means the nut will retain loading over a broader range of deflection than the shoulder. In other words if you were worried about which one would loosen first, it would be the barrel with the shoulder.