recoil lug

Dennis,

Dennis Sorensen said:
I like and use Holland lugs because they are the same size as the receiver and they look good...:)

That being said, in my opinion it is a toss up if it will shoot any better than with the factory lug...

Has anyone actually tested the difference in accuracy between a factory lug that may be out 1/2 thou and a lug that is dead true?... with all other things equal... not an anecdotal case, but an actual test...? Show the results please ...
Click to expand...

I read your posts all the time and you are among the guys that I pay attention to. You have a wealth of knowledge that I appreciate you sharing.

I am not trying to be argumenative, just offer an opinion.....

Can I prove a aftermarket lug is better, maybe, but prob not. To prove it, you would have to take more than one rifle, barrel them with the factory lug, then test. Then pull the barrels, set the shoulders back and test again.

Would that be a valid test, prob not. By putting the barrel back up in the lathe and cutting again, you are changing more than just the shoulder depth for the thicker lug, you are slightly changing the harmonics of the barrel. So any results could be questionable. It would require you to rebed the rifle, another variable that is difficult to control.

It is like so many things we do to make these things repeat, we do them because we gain confidence in the package. We eliminate a variable. But no body can prove they improve accuracy. So the debate goes on......

If we go through the trouble to square up an action, make everything concentric. Turn the tenion/shoulder of the barre square and concentric. Chamber the barrel to be precisely in line. Then put a stamped out washer between them, didn't we just throw away alot of that precission work? I think so.

With a lug that is absolutely flat and square increases our chances of removing a barrel and putting it back on with the same tension and stress. I don't believe you can do that with a factory lug. JMHO

So in response to you challenge, I can't prove it, nor have I, nor do I intend to try. But I will continue to use either an aftermarket lug or one that has been surface ground to be flat and square.

Do I thinky your wrong, nope! But I think you are leaving something on the table by short cutting a cheap step.

Randy
 
Randy... I kind of agree with you... adding a nice lug is kind of eliminating a possible problem and it is a piece of mind thing...

but this fellow is making a " .308 long range coyote swatter" ... not a competitive rifle at all... with just a good barrel and no action work it will probably shoot in the .3's... not much better with all the work... but completely accurate for long range coyotes... I think a 6mm would have been better though...

I think a true test would involve fitting lugs of equal thickness, one lug with a 1/2 thou taper... test with the true lug first, get your best load working and then install the "off" lug... headspace would not change... barrel free floated of course... shoot away...

... it's a good forum... :)
 
Dennis,

You are right, it is a good discussion, I like these, exchange of ideas is always good.

He did mention in his opening post he was having the action worked. Now how much he is doing is another thing that would make a difference.

I am one of those that is spoiled by the BR rigs and Long Range stuff, I am always looking to do every thing I can to make them shoot better. You get spoiled.

Your idea for a test is a good one. I would think it would have to be done to more than one rifle to validate the findings.

Regarding a 308 for a Yote gun, it works for me, as I am a 308 nut. Actually I have one that I love to shoot Ground Squirrels with :D:D An't the flatest shoot thing in the world, but man when you dial in the range, it just works!!!

Anyway, what ever he does with this rifle, I am sure it will work, I just have a tendancy to go over kill, then I never have an excuse. Never the thought in the back of my mind, "maybe I should of replaced that lug"

Catch you guys later, going hog hunting, got to get my stuff ready.

Randy
 
Hello all,

Thanks for all the insight as I have learned a great deal from this discussion. As I mentioned earlier, I am going to have the lug installed and damn whatever extra costs go with it. The action is being "trued" and the bolt face and lugs are being lapped but I have a question. To be honest, I have heard the word "trued" many times on here and I am paying to have it done and really dont know what it entails exactly.

I apologize for asking perhaps a dumb question but other than the lug/bolt face work, what else does truing consist of?

As far as the caliber choice, I did think of a 6mm or similar but I already have 3 other .22 cal coyote rifles and a .243 which is currently the largest caliber I own. I wanted to go with an inherently accurate and proven round with a wide range of bullet options as I also may have the opportunity to go elk hunting with it next fall.

I know that my rifle will not be competitive in the benchrest arena but I do hope when all is said and done, it will turn out to be a good bit more accurate than the standard box stock long range varmint rifle.

Anyway, thanks for your time and input. It is valuable to me.

Jaybic
 
Jaybic,

Dennis will prob be able to give you a more detailed explaination of the truing as he has alot more experience than I do.

In my opinion, there is no one way to do it and many levels of truing.

The goal is to get everything square and in line, elimianting as much stress and tension on combination.

That is what all these custom actions are about, from the box they are near perfect on squareness and alignment. You can take your Remington, spend a fortune on it and come close to a custom action. Cheaper to buy the custom.

For what you are building, you will be fine. The 308 is an inheriently accurate round, I love them. I have a XP-100 pistol chambered in 308 that puts most rifles to shame. I have sent more than one guy home from the range with his tail between his legs trying to out shoot it with their varmint rig (photo attached)

Good luck on your project, let us know how it goes.

Randy
 

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Basic truing on a 700 action for me is to machine the bolt lug recesses and the action face and the threads as true to the bolt raceway as possible. The bolt lugs are also machined square to the bolt body. Lapping about five strokes is only done to confirm the machining was good. I don't like to lap to make the fit good... This work can be done by set up in a lathe or by specialized tooling.

There is a lot more work than can be done trying to make a Benchrest action out of the 700. It usually isn't worth the cost...
 
700 Br Action...

Dennis Sorensen said:
There is a lot more work than can be done trying to make a Benchrest action out of the 700. It usually isn't worth the cost...
Click to expand...

That is an understatement Dennis, lol, But......

Bob Brackney in Arizona shoots sleeved 700 in the BR game. And he does very well.

That being said, we would all have a heart attack and go to the poor house if we tried his have his actions matched, you could prob buy two Bat's for less money.

Bob built my last High Power Shilo rig, I have never owned a finner shooting offhand gun. He has the magic touch with Remys.
 
A question about bedding

"damn whatever extra cost go with it" wow, you're about to send some smith's kids to college. :D

I have a question: I have a 700 varmint special with the alum bedding block. 22-250. I have skim bedded the action onto the bedding block and bedded the recoil lug. Since this work has been done, I have had the action rebarrelled. The post was made that if a rifle is rebarrelled it needed to be rebedded. Since the barrel is free floating, how does that affect the bedding that it needs to be redone?
I just dropped the action back into the stock and went back to shooting.
 
Beemanbeme,

I think we are talking about the very same rifle here. Mine is/was a Rem 700VS(Varmint Special or Varmint Synthetic?) in 22-250 with the HS Precision aluminum block bedded stock. It will come home a .308 when the smith is done.

Sounds like you are asking a smarter version of the same question I had.:)

Jaybic

P.s. What is skim-bedding anyway?
 
Beeman,

The trick is for the smith to get the lug back in the same position.

If in the process of installing the barrel, the lug twists a degree or two, it can potentially press against the side of the bedding. If does, it can cause problems.

Remember, the lug is really nothing more than a big washer with an extension to act as the lug. It can twist when the barrel is tightened. That is one of the reasons alot of people pin the lugs to the action, acts as an anti rotation stop.

I put a witness mark on the bottom of the action and lug prior to removing the barrel, then it can be confirmed it has not twisted.

So to answer your question, if the action is bedded and the barrel is full floated to the face of the lug, it should not need to be rebedded provided the lug is re-installed in the same position.

That is also one of the reasons that I tape off the bottom, sides and face of the recoil lug before bedding. After the bedding is cured and the tape removed, there is a .004-.005" clearance around the lug, no chance of it binding and puting pressure on the action.

I think the lug should serve one purpose in regards to bedding---IT IS A RECOOIL LUG! It should never be depended on to line up the action in the stock. I only look for the back of the lug to touch the bedding.

I have a couple of Remys that are switch barrel rigs, has never been a problem swapping the barrels.

In the early days of learning to bed, I used to make a perfect fit, had to press the lug into the stock before putting the action screws in. I found it worked better with the clearence.

Regarding skim bedding, my version of it is simply the painting of the inside of the stock with a thin layer of bedding compound to compensate for any low or high spots. It doesn't really add anything to the regidity of the stock.I prefer to remove alot of stock material, install pilliars and do a three step bedding job. But skim bedding does work and can help.

Regarding smarter question Jaybic, your questions and reponses have been good, this is the only way you learn. That is what this forum is all about.

I was fortune enough to have been in contact and learned how to bed rifles from Bob Pease (boy there is a name from the past) back in the 70's, somewhere I still hive a his book on rifle bedding. Beleive me, I asked alot of what I thought were dumb questions, I learned something from everyone of them.

Your are going to find alot of people on here that are very opinionated (myself included), just listen to everyone and form your opinion. Everyone has something to offer.

Randy
 
Jaybic,

You are going to love the 308, they just shoot.

My load has always been 41-41.5 grains of IMR 4895 behind a 168 and it shoots!

The only 308 I have ever owned that would not shoot that load was heavy barrel Sako (Douglas barrel), the only thing it would shoot was H380. Why, I have not clue, lol.

On of my switch barrel rigs is a Sleeved Remington 700, has a Hart 308 and 257 Roberts barrel on it. The 308 barrel is on it all the time.

Randy
 
The only reason the action would need re-bedding is if the face of the action was altered (trued). Picture the face of the action out of square and the angle that the lug would be on, in whichever direction the out of squareness is. Once a stock is bedded to the out of square condition, and then the action is squared up, now contact is lost between the face of the lug and the bedding in the lug area. Without rebedding, this would also cause the action to be pulled forward on the bedding job under the action by however much was removed from the face of the action, again possibly causing a mismatch in the bedding.
As far as skim bedding goes, a normal bedding job consists of removing from about 1/16th to 1/8 of an inch of material from under the action and in the recoil lug area. Then it is bedded with whatever material the smith chooses to form a hopefully perfect stress free match under the action and behind the lug. A skim bedding job is just that--removing little or no material from these areas and using a minimum amount of compound to make up any mismatch.
 
very good point rflsh00tr,

It does not take much to throw things out of wack.

Randy
 
Skim bedding, I'm not sure that's the right term

In my case, I didn't feel that the action was laying quite true in the bedding block. That is to say, I felt the action was kinda binding as I tightened it into the block.
What drove my first interest or concern was I didn't feel I was getting the accuracy that I felt I should so I went hunting. Understand I am not a smith but I do like to tinker with rifles and I own several 700's and am pretty familar with them. I would tighten the front action screw w/o the rear screw in place and when I put my hand on the top of the action and began to loosen the front screw, I could feel the action relax or move in a unnatural manner so to speak.
I had already bedded the recoil lug (factory, oh Lord forgive me) so I took that bedding out and prepped the action and lug for bedding. (I use Johnson's paste wax) and laid down a coat of epoxy on the bedding block and in the recoil slot. I tightened the rear action screw and let gravity take care of the front end. The next day, I said my usual little prayer that I had put enough release agent on the action and, thank you Lord, they popped apart. At the rear, the block was clear of bedding compound and up the left side but on the right side, it got progressively thicker as it went forward and at the front the bedding compound was around 1/8" thick. So when I was tightening down the action, before the bedding, it was twisting. When I got the rifle, I gave the barrel 500 strokes of JB and while I rested my arm, put a little JB on the bolt lugs and worked those a bit so after bedding the action, it went on to be a pretty consistant winner in the factory matches. And was hard, hard on Pdogs. :D
 
I am totally confused

I am looking at a Remington 700. Where is the face of the action? Are you tallking about the portion behind the recoil lug? How often do you find one that needs truing? I own and have owned a lot of Rems. I guess I've been lucky.
 
beemanbeme said:
I am looking at a Remington 700. Where is the face of the action? Are you tallking about the portion behind the recoil lug? How often do you find one that needs truing? I own and have owned a lot of Rems. I guess I've been lucky.
Click to expand...

The face of the receiver is that portion of the receiver just behind the recoil lug. I've trued several and all of them needed a truing cut on the receiver face. The receiver lug abutments are just as bad. With a little work the Remington receiver's clean up nicely.
 
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