Recent trends

C

Charles E

curmudgeon
All the pixels on wind reading at 1000 yards have made be chuckle, particularly when comparing recent trends of 1K BR to point-blank BR.

In PB: discovery that the .30 is at least as good as the 6mm, even for group shooting. As is usual with anything new, some claim the .30 is actually better -- better bullets, easier to make good barrels, less need to tune, with recoil and bullet cost being the only downside

In 1K: discovery that the 6mm can shoot along side with the .30s (Bill Shehane always new this). As is usually with anything new, some claim (mainly internet pixel punchers) the .30 is just a useless nightmare and completely dead.

In PB: (Well, it happened 25 years ago, but . . .) Those who run and gun will always out-agg those who wait for their condition. Translation: Reading the wind is an iffy proposition. It is easier, you will make fewer mistakes, by trying to evaluate small changes in a short period of time, rather than trying to asses "the wind." Tony Boyer being the most famous advocate of this.

In 1K: (at least with some internet pixel punchers) You have to be able to read the wind. Not just the flags in front of you (there aren't any), but the whole range, the trees, the mirage, etc.

Hmmm, seems 1K people are, what, more effusive?

Prediction: Since PB shooters moved away from the .22 in the 1980s, I expect to see it making inroads in 1K BR anytime now.

Thought: since the two seem to be moving in opposite directions, lets sum the yardages: 100+200+300+600+1000 = 2200. 2200/5=440. We need a new sport, quarter-mile BR. Everything will resolve, will come together there. (Except, of course, for those who believe in magic.)
 
for a moderator, you seem to be misplaced. narrow minded, single track vengeful.........it pains me to see wilburs bandwidth wasted by you.

you now have two well known shooters telling you wind reading at 1k is possible ,practical, can be done, and you carry on your narrow minded postion that no such thing is possible.

the only wind around here that cannot be read id the hot air out of you..........

mike in co
 
Charles,

One small PB correction, there are conditions where one cannot run, because the speed with which the wind is switching.

Some time back, a friend, who is a very talented shooter, went to Tony School, and came back firmly committed to running all of his groups. When he told me that this was his plan, I pointed out that under some conditions, this would spell disaster, he was not deterred. Later, telling a story on himself, he admitted that he had just had less than perfect results at a match at St. Lewis, running. The conditions had been switchy all weekend. He also mentioned that Mr. Boyer shot a few benches from his, and after the match, told him that he had picked all weekend.

Boyd
 
I know, Boyd. I was alluding to internet trends. As far as that goes, I believe Jackie shot his new (pending) agg record by picking. There are a few of us who will alwas be pickers, I think. I tried to run point-blank for a couple of seasons and did worse. I now shoot what I suppose could be called a "fast pick."
 
mike in co said:
for a moderator, you seem to be misplaced. narrow minded, single track vengeful.........it pains me to see wilburs bandwidth wasted by you.

you now have two well known shooters telling you wind reading at 1k is possible ,practical, can be done, and you carry on your narrow minded postion that no such thing is possible.

the only wind around here that cannot be read id the hot air out of you..........

mike in co
Click to expand...

OK, you pound long enough, I'll get personal. Seems to me that first of all, you have not read what I wrote. That chronicled how I read wind, both for short and long range.

As far as the "noted long-range shooters" go, I consider Jim Hardy a friend. For some people, "friend" is someone they met who was willing to shake their hand. For others of us, a friend is someone you'd go to the mat for. Jim is that kind of friend. Having said that, I'm not aware of any 1K benchrest shooting he's done since moving to highpower.

You seem to feel that moderators are not entitled to an opinion, unless, I suppose, it agrees with your opinion. Not going to happen. As far as "moderation" goes, the only thing I see in this thread that could even remotely be considered in need of moderation are the insults slung. I will allow your expertise in that, and only that. But you'll notice that they are all still there, no moderator has removed any of your posts, or until now, even remarked on maintaing a level of civility. Consider the remark made.
 
IMO different shooting games require different methods to acheive success. Over the years shooting 1K BR I have done reasonably well by shooting fast and not holding off. Most of my shooting was done at the Hawk's Ridge Gun Club where I think I was second in total points earned at that club. I don't think anyone can read the conditions at most ranges I have shot at well enough to shoot the small group sizes that are required to consistently win in 1K BR today. Occassionally the pickers will win a relay but often they are taken to school by what they don't/can't see. My Motto "If the bullets aren't flyin I'm dyin"
 
Jim,

I pretty much agree with your last post. The thing West Coast people tend to forget is that in IBS and Pennsylvania 1K shooting, there is no overall winner at regular matches. You can win group, or score, but never both. Of the two, group carried a higher status, if not more points. Only at the Nationals/World Open is there an overall winner.

What most of us are saying, I think, is if you hold off, you put the group at risk. Winning 10-shot groups tend to be in the high 5-inch region, and it is heading towards the 4-inch region. Winning 5-shot groups are in the high 3, low 4-inch region. That's small. Very few people want to risk winning group to improve their score.

There are benchrest people who can improve their group shooting by holding off a bit. By "improve" I mean that over time, they'll be right more often than wrong. Steve Shelp comes to mind. On the east coast, there aren't that many.

On the emotional preference of group-- remember when Charles Bailey got interested in astronomy, and spent all his bullet money on telescopes? At the first match after the "astronomy winter," he mentioned that all he had left was several years worth of "B-grade bullets." "But," he added "they should be good enough to win score." And of course, that was the year he won so many score matches, and with a few group wins, became IBS Shooter of the Year.

Giving preference to score is a strategy most of us don't think about, but there is nothing wrong with it. And at the Nationals, you can't win overall without paying attention to it. Still, even at the Nationals, we don't put much weight in the overall standings. I don't remember what happened in the recent points change, but it use to be that a top-10 at the Nats in a single gun, group or score, was worth a point. A win was worth 4(?) points. The Overall win was worth 4 points too, but no points were awarded beyond the win.

* * *

As for picking a time to run your string, that has occurered to most of us. I'm not an experience 600 yards shooter, but I use the technique in that format. At Hawks Ridge, it always seemed you couldn't read the wind well enough to figure out when the right left-pick up moved the shot from a horizontal to a vertical, and a further pickup move it back to big-time horizontal. You guess wrong, and you're both in double-digit territory and not centered up.

As always, ranges and formats are a part of the strategy of winning.
 
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Charles:

I deleted some of my posts on this thread as I was concerned that they might offend someone. I hope I have not.

As to "holding off", I never once advocated doing that as I believe it woud be a disaster in the 1K BR game -- almost all the time. I believe in the quick runs. My only opinion, after learning a little about reading the conditions in the prone game, and being around the very best wind readers in the world, is that the ability to identify and select a more narrow condition bracket on your sighters and then shooting that same small bracket on your record string (quickly) might/should result in a better performance in 1K BR.

Matt Kline's new record was clearly shot in the same condition as his sighters because it was small and centered. Nothing else is even possible unless you don't believe that the wind is a factor at 1000 yards, i.e., that a pickup or letoff would have made no difference on Matt's group.

Looking back on these associated "wind reading" threads, I have come to the conclusion that most shooters have no desire to establish a narrow bracket (a learned skillset) on their sighters and then shoot the same bracket quickly on their record rounds. There is no risk to that skillset as you run them just like you always have but with a more narrow bracket. Most would rather get in the center on their sighters and run the record string. If they are little on group/big on score, life is good. If not, they learn NOTHING and hope for more "luck", a better shooting position on the line, or a better relay assignment at the next match. In fact, part of my frustration when I shot 1000 BR was that even if I shot well I learned NOTHING except the final result -- the same as I learned from a poor target. There is just too much luck, and trying to control that luck (after great bullets, barrels, ammo etc.) starts with developing a skillset that helps the luck "blow" your way more often -- I think.

Jim
 
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Jim, I completely agree with your last post, except for one major thing: your decision to delete your previous post. The two in concert were the clearest analysis I've seen on how to read the wind for 1K benchrest.

And "clearest" = "best." Obvious, as the rest of us have failed to find a consensus, something striking odd, considering the differing remarks involved so many accomplished competitors.

This isn't "Secret Stuff," folks. Learning how to use the sighter period to best advantage isn't going to make you an instant winner. But it will make you a consistently better shooter, and as everything improves, a more consistent winner.

How about restoring the post?

Charles
 
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