V
PETER ACTION 
Pretty good one Greg. For sure people need to uderstand that there are much closer tolerances being machined than what is necessary to make a good action. I think that in over 100 years of making Mauser type actions companies and individuals have the tolerances and machining down pretty good. Each brand/type of action is made for a purpose and they fit those purposes pretty well when used as designed.
Pretty good one Greg. For sure people need to uderstand that there are much closer tolerances being machined than what is necessary to make a good action. I think that in over 100 years of making Mauser type actions companies and individuals have the tolerances and machining down pretty good. Each brand/type of action is made for a purpose and they fit those purposes pretty well when used as designed.
S
Spott3r
Guest
Technology
I think what Peter knows on a daily basis that there are better materials to make actions with.
It's really neat that there is progression and that we have an opportunity to improve upon what has gone before.
Thanks to Peter(awkwardly) and Jackie(smoothly), so what can be done...
I think what Peter knows on a daily basis that there are better materials to make actions with.
It's really neat that there is progression and that we have an opportunity to improve upon what has gone before.
Thanks to Peter(awkwardly) and Jackie(smoothly), so what can be done...
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Jackie-Dave Short-Lynn and many others
I can see your point here and we all can see how simple things can very quickly to go from a very calm cruise to a very wild ride.
I may sound crude, but I never have any personal issues with anybody. I don't carry venomosity in me against someone who may have had a different opinion about a Metric or a Mauser 98. That subject was and that subject has finished. There and than.
As a toolmaker by trade when I was working for 7 years in the industry I and anybody in the workshop would had welcome any advice from anybody how to improve anything or make sure that one is all the time on the right track.
When a simple plastic mould may take 2 months to complete and costing accordingly I can assure you, that you take any advice from anybody very seriously. One mistake and there is no return. Here it upsets everybody.
What one can say?,,, about a respectable gunsmith here who is giving an advice on how it would be much quicker to file a bolt lug true to a guy who is asking a question "what exactly is a finish file?". I rest my case on this one.
I think, that Dave has the right idea by not wrangling with some people and Jackie has a good point of "being a gentleman", Lynn hasn't been involved here, but he'd proved that he's a top bloke who can handle anything.
Lets see how long it will take before the first one to come along with his own personal unrelated crap and w'll divert from the original question of this thread and will transfer everything once again into his own personal vendetta for the others like him quickly to follow.
Guys, keep in mind that nothing offends me, doesn't matter how hard you try, so maybe we all should listen to Jackie and once for all become more civil from now on and stop ruining this forum.
Shoot better
Peter
I can see your point here and we all can see how simple things can very quickly to go from a very calm cruise to a very wild ride.
I may sound crude, but I never have any personal issues with anybody. I don't carry venomosity in me against someone who may have had a different opinion about a Metric or a Mauser 98. That subject was and that subject has finished. There and than.
As a toolmaker by trade when I was working for 7 years in the industry I and anybody in the workshop would had welcome any advice from anybody how to improve anything or make sure that one is all the time on the right track.
When a simple plastic mould may take 2 months to complete and costing accordingly I can assure you, that you take any advice from anybody very seriously. One mistake and there is no return. Here it upsets everybody.
What one can say?,,, about a respectable gunsmith here who is giving an advice on how it would be much quicker to file a bolt lug true to a guy who is asking a question "what exactly is a finish file?". I rest my case on this one.
I think, that Dave has the right idea by not wrangling with some people and Jackie has a good point of "being a gentleman", Lynn hasn't been involved here, but he'd proved that he's a top bloke who can handle anything.
Lets see how long it will take before the first one to come along with his own personal unrelated crap and w'll divert from the original question of this thread and will transfer everything once again into his own personal vendetta for the others like him quickly to follow.
Guys, keep in mind that nothing offends me, doesn't matter how hard you try, so maybe we all should listen to Jackie and once for all become more civil from now on and stop ruining this forum.
Shoot better
Peter
D
Dave Short
Guest
Now that we've got that all out of the way, let's get down to why all of the closest fits and perfect individual parts most likely won't help BR aggs, and may possibly cause surprises....fliers. There are some forces that can(negatively) effect the interaction of the parts of any mechanical assembly if adequate clearance is not allowed. With that said, clearances can be kept at a minimum if everything is as round, coaxial, perpendicular, etc. etc. as possible. Even if we make it all as straight as can be, we still have to consider that our BR rifle goes through a number of very different motions with each shot, varying from benign to downright violent. Crowd anything that is in the process of flexing/moving, and it will be very unlikely that that particular set of components will behave in a uniform fashion from shot to shot.
If we get it all just right, will there be anything to be gained? Will the bolt cycle smoothly? Will the rifle be a little sharper? Keep in mind, Jerry Stiller (or someone quoting him) said here not too long ago that there were small, but noticible gains in a floating bolt head. Some of the best shooting I've seen has been done with a rifle built on Jim Borden's action with the "Bumps" that all but eliminate bolt body diametral clearance on closing. Some of the "old standby" actions have a few thousandths clearance and deliver absolutely excellent, match-winning performance, one action after another. Consider that the Men behind these things are absolutely committed to making top-notch actions, and have the skill and experience to do whatever is necessary (within reason) to make the best action (most accurate) they can.
Okay.......
Next?
-Dave-
If we get it all just right, will there be anything to be gained? Will the bolt cycle smoothly? Will the rifle be a little sharper? Keep in mind, Jerry Stiller (or someone quoting him) said here not too long ago that there were small, but noticible gains in a floating bolt head. Some of the best shooting I've seen has been done with a rifle built on Jim Borden's action with the "Bumps" that all but eliminate bolt body diametral clearance on closing. Some of the "old standby" actions have a few thousandths clearance and deliver absolutely excellent, match-winning performance, one action after another. Consider that the Men behind these things are absolutely committed to making top-notch actions, and have the skill and experience to do whatever is necessary (within reason) to make the best action (most accurate) they can.
Okay.......
Next?
-Dave-
jackie schmidt
New member
Dave
I think Jerry's final analysis was that what ever gains were to be had from the floating bolt head was not worth the added hassle of production.
There was also the "problem" of not being able to keep grease on the contact surfaces due to the near 100 percent contact. I think Hensler was the one who experienced that.
Maybe Jerry will chime in and give us some first hand info........jackie
I think Jerry's final analysis was that what ever gains were to be had from the floating bolt head was not worth the added hassle of production.
There was also the "problem" of not being able to keep grease on the contact surfaces due to the near 100 percent contact. I think Hensler was the one who experienced that.
Maybe Jerry will chime in and give us some first hand info........jackie
P
PPP MMM
Guest
The "grease" on the lugs problem
Could be solved by using a receiver locking insert made of a suitable low friction steel material or a selectively carburised EN-39B or a Flexor. However the issue between the gains and the production hassle remains.
Shoot better
Peter
Could be solved by using a receiver locking insert made of a suitable low friction steel material or a selectively carburised EN-39B or a Flexor. However the issue between the gains and the production hassle remains.
Shoot better
Peter
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Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
what would make stellite work instead of like say 17-4? I have some hastelloy- man I don't miss those runs
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Dave
You've mentioned three different "fit bolt/action" configurations and simply there's no clear cut winner. However, you've made me intrigue.
How about a combination of the best Worlds.
A large diameter receiver, with a locking insert with a 5mm (0.197") long lead with 0.01mm (0.000393") diameter fit made of selectively carburised EN 39B or a Flexor steel to be threaded and screwed hard into the receiver until full and solid contact is achieved at the bottom of a continuation of the main thread, cross pinned with SS P420 spring pin. The barrel tennon/shoulder to have contact with both the receiver face and the locking insert with 0.02mm (0.0008") in the favour of the receiver face to contact first.
The floating bolt head made of selectively carburised EN-39 or a Flexor steel and grinded after heat reatment to have a shank of sufficient length 10mm (0.393") behind the locking lugs before stepped down to enter the main bolt body. The fit in between the two and the cross pin to have a sufficient play 0.08mm (0.0031") in every direction.
The bolt main body made of EN-41A or 4140 to be nitrided and to have a full 0.2mm (0.0078") clearance with four bumps with 0.02mm (0.00078") fit when bolt fully locked to minimise bolt body vibrations upon firing.
The FLOATING bolt head would provide a PERFECT lock up.
The bolt body BUMPS would MINIMISE the bolt vibrations.
The surface hardness (57-60HRC) of the material used for the BOLT HEAD / LOCKING INSERT would at least MINIMISE if not ELIMINATE the call for grease.
If any CLEARANCES are to be find too tight, they ALWAYS can be made bigger
Just a thought
Shoot better
Peter
You've mentioned three different "fit bolt/action" configurations and simply there's no clear cut winner. However, you've made me intrigue.
How about a combination of the best Worlds.
A large diameter receiver, with a locking insert with a 5mm (0.197") long lead with 0.01mm (0.000393") diameter fit made of selectively carburised EN 39B or a Flexor steel to be threaded and screwed hard into the receiver until full and solid contact is achieved at the bottom of a continuation of the main thread, cross pinned with SS P420 spring pin. The barrel tennon/shoulder to have contact with both the receiver face and the locking insert with 0.02mm (0.0008") in the favour of the receiver face to contact first.
The floating bolt head made of selectively carburised EN-39 or a Flexor steel and grinded after heat reatment to have a shank of sufficient length 10mm (0.393") behind the locking lugs before stepped down to enter the main bolt body. The fit in between the two and the cross pin to have a sufficient play 0.08mm (0.0031") in every direction.
The bolt main body made of EN-41A or 4140 to be nitrided and to have a full 0.2mm (0.0078") clearance with four bumps with 0.02mm (0.00078") fit when bolt fully locked to minimise bolt body vibrations upon firing.
The FLOATING bolt head would provide a PERFECT lock up.
The bolt body BUMPS would MINIMISE the bolt vibrations.
The surface hardness (57-60HRC) of the material used for the BOLT HEAD / LOCKING INSERT would at least MINIMISE if not ELIMINATE the call for grease.
If any CLEARANCES are to be find too tight, they ALWAYS can be made bigger
Just a thought
Shoot better
Peter
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Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
so you're saying if the 2 parts are hard enough you won't need grease? what about when it slams together with 60,000CUP or so? I think it would be a hard bolt lift even before the shot, and that disturbs the gun in the bags too much.
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Dusty
Quiet frankly, if you'r asking this type of question I don't think that you really know what you'r talking about. However, Stellite is a low friction material, but it would be probably out of the equation as any machining is a real concern.
Hastalloys have outstanding properties at high temperatures. At room temperatures they don't exhibit anything of extraordinary. Unless one is going to plan to shoot a Benchrest at such a rate that the insert/bolt head would reach some 550*C+ (1050*F) the Hastalloys would have no advantage whatsoever.
Should a surface hardness of 57-60 HRC at 60 000PSI need a grease? I can't tell you for sure. Besides, one can always put a grease on.
What I can tell you for sure is, that if it did, it would be negligible and far less crucial than a SS 17-4 PH receiver at 36-38HRC and a CM bolt at 44HRC.
Shoot better
Peter
,,,,,,,,what would make stellite work instead of like say 17-4? I have some hastelloy- man I don't miss those runs
Quiet frankly, if you'r asking this type of question I don't think that you really know what you'r talking about. However, Stellite is a low friction material, but it would be probably out of the equation as any machining is a real concern.
Hastalloys have outstanding properties at high temperatures. At room temperatures they don't exhibit anything of extraordinary. Unless one is going to plan to shoot a Benchrest at such a rate that the insert/bolt head would reach some 550*C+ (1050*F) the Hastalloys would have no advantage whatsoever.
Should a surface hardness of 57-60 HRC at 60 000PSI need a grease? I can't tell you for sure. Besides, one can always put a grease on.
What I can tell you for sure is, that if it did, it would be negligible and far less crucial than a SS 17-4 PH receiver at 36-38HRC and a CM bolt at 44HRC.
Shoot better
Peter
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R
RStiefel
Guest
No grease???
With those close tolerances, would it be feesable to have the bolt treated with Robar's proprietary NP3 coating and eliminate the grease completely?
Maybe brush on a bit of BN at certain intervals.
Rich in Ca.
With those close tolerances, would it be feesable to have the bolt treated with Robar's proprietary NP3 coating and eliminate the grease completely?
Maybe brush on a bit of BN at certain intervals.
Rich in Ca.
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Guys it's amazing
That for years you've been shooting (Extremely well, I have to admit) whatever actions were availble to you, Remingtons, Wichitas, Shilens, BATs,etc. It never seem to worry anybody what materials or coating(if any) were ever used.
Suddenly, when someone mentions something different here most of you seem to have thousands of better solutions and advices and that's good.
I haven't been in my profession for many years and the technology/materials/coatings had changed for the better.
As I've said it was just a thought, and it was. I didn't sit down to do a full research on to find the very best materials/coatings etc. to suit the application to the absolute limit.
Should the tolerances of 0.2mm (0.0078") on a bolt body or 0.02mm (0.00078") on the four bumps be too tight????
They always can be made bigger if required to be so.
I think it will be better for all of us to wrap it up right here.
Shoot better
Peter
That for years you've been shooting (Extremely well, I have to admit) whatever actions were availble to you, Remingtons, Wichitas, Shilens, BATs,etc. It never seem to worry anybody what materials or coating(if any) were ever used.
Suddenly, when someone mentions something different here most of you seem to have thousands of better solutions and advices and that's good.
I haven't been in my profession for many years and the technology/materials/coatings had changed for the better.
As I've said it was just a thought, and it was. I didn't sit down to do a full research on to find the very best materials/coatings etc. to suit the application to the absolute limit.
Should the tolerances of 0.2mm (0.0078") on a bolt body or 0.02mm (0.00078") on the four bumps be too tight????
They always can be made bigger if required to be so.
I think it will be better for all of us to wrap it up right here.
Shoot better
Peter
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R
RStiefel
Guest
Peter
This was a serious question. Do you know anything about NP3 or the Robar co?
I really don't know why you viewed my question as some type of challenge.GEEEEEZ
This was a serious question. Do you know anything about NP3 or the Robar co?
I really don't know why you viewed my question as some type of challenge.GEEEEEZ
P
PPP MMM
Guest
RStiefel
I didn't viewed your question as any challenge at all, to be perfectly honest I know about Robar, however I know next to nothing about the NP3 coating properties. Now you've mentioned it, I'll devote my closer attention to find more about it. No bad feelings. Thanks.
Shoot better
Peter
,,,,,
I didn't viewed your question as any challenge at all, to be perfectly honest I know about Robar, however I know next to nothing about the NP3 coating properties. Now you've mentioned it, I'll devote my closer attention to find more about it. No bad feelings. Thanks.
Shoot better
Peter
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
now I see how it is. I think I do know a little something about it. I made hastelloy parts for a reason and it wasn't heat. hastelloy was the only material that would hold up under those conditions. I sure am glad I don't get to work around a dude as smart as you on a daily basis. now see if you can research what we actually use hastelloy for here in america then you'll be an expert on that too. seems every thread turns out this way. sure am glad you joined our forum to keep us straight and I guess I'll just keep on shootin my inferior actions no hard feelings peter piper- I think I'll join my buds on the other side of the block list
no hard feelings peter piper- I think I'll join my buds on the other side of the block list
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Dusty, before you join your buddies on the block list
Plese do me a favour and tell us all;
What exactly was the part, that you've made that only a Hastelloy could cope with the requirements/conditions?
What was the name of the particular Hastelloy that had a different purpose other than Heat Resisting properties?
I can't speak for anybody else, but myself and I would most certainly want to know what part in a rifle action operating at room temperature would have to be made of Heat Resistant Hastelloy?
As you can see, I always want to learn something new.
I know that you know a little bit, so I'm not holding my breath to get a very useful answer.
Shoot better
Peter
Plese do me a favour and tell us all;
What exactly was the part, that you've made that only a Hastelloy could cope with the requirements/conditions?
What was the name of the particular Hastelloy that had a different purpose other than Heat Resisting properties?
I can't speak for anybody else, but myself and I would most certainly want to know what part in a rifle action operating at room temperature would have to be made of Heat Resistant Hastelloy?
As you can see, I always want to learn something new.
I know that you know a little bit, so I'm not holding my breath to get a very useful answer.
Shoot better
Peter
Dusty Stevens
Hollow Point Dispenser
it was actually for abrasion resistance in an ash handling unit. you are the one trying to make a $5000 action here. I have never galled a lug in my life- and I actually shoot! a floating bolt head is only good for straightening up an inferior action that don't lock straight, such as in mass produced assembly line type rigs. I prefer to have them straight in the first place. you can keep all of your apprentice type theories. I actually asked you a few questions on this thread I thought you could answer. all you can do is call other folks imbeciles. I'll go out to my shop and actually look at guns now. are you near a museum that has some mausers or something on display in a history section? maybe they'll let you measure them sometime.
jackie schmidt
New member
Hastelloy
I was under the impression that the variuos Hastelloy alloys owe their existance to the need for a material that will withstand extremey costic and acidic inviroments at elevated temperatures. Most are as much as 20 percent Chromium, and 60 percent Nickel, with a big dose of Molybdenum thrown in. The specific alloy content is user specific, depending on the types of acids or other destructive agents that willbe encountered.
None are known for their high tensil and yeild strengths that can be obtained when compared to regular structural alloys, (4140, 4340, etc), or the precipitating hardenning stainless steels.
It's a B**** to machine. I would just as soon it stays where it is.......jackie
I was under the impression that the variuos Hastelloy alloys owe their existance to the need for a material that will withstand extremey costic and acidic inviroments at elevated temperatures. Most are as much as 20 percent Chromium, and 60 percent Nickel, with a big dose of Molybdenum thrown in. The specific alloy content is user specific, depending on the types of acids or other destructive agents that willbe encountered.
None are known for their high tensil and yeild strengths that can be obtained when compared to regular structural alloys, (4140, 4340, etc), or the precipitating hardenning stainless steels.
It's a B**** to machine. I would just as soon it stays where it is.......jackie
P
PPP MMM
Guest
Dusty, Dusty,,,
This thread is "Rate the most popular Custom action"
It was you who made a shot at me "how I would make myself a better action".
I had no intention to mention about what I would make until Jackie h've asked me.
I've answered all your questions, without calling you nothing, but Dusty.
When Dave came along with his personal experience and findings, the floating head was mentioned.
Jackie expanded on the floating head theory and clarified the problems commonly associated with the floating head.
I sudgested a "possible solution" to the problem by using a hard surface material locking insert in the receiver as well as the floating head to minimise these problems.
You came along and expressing several doubts and questions and I've answered them all.
You didn't agree with my info and the suitability of a Hastelloy so you've apparently made something that only a Hastelloy could handle the condition. That "was not just" a heat resistance.
When I've asked you what it was, You say it was something to combat abrassion resistance in ASH TRAY handling unit. Wouldn't that possibly have something to do with heat?????
Heat resistant steel- means that the material will keep most of its mechanical/physical properties (that includes abrasion as well) in elevated temperatures. (Elevated temperatures means above 200*C)
Certain cobalt/tungsten based alloys can resist up to 1100*C and still can have similar mechanical properties such as strength/toughness/hardness of high tensile steels in a room temperature.
A floating bolt head to "lock up straight" in an inferior actions. What about a floating head to lock up straight in any action. Isn't that what a Benchrest precision is all about?
Me who owned 43 rifles from .308 to .460WM and went through some 30 000+ rounds I suppose I don't shoot.
As for me to keep my apprentice theories? I admit that I don't know everything and I don't remember everything forever, but you still have a long way to go boy.
I think that somehow a "Chicken wants to be smarter than the Rooster" here.
Shoot better
Peter
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
This thread is "Rate the most popular Custom action"
It was you who made a shot at me "how I would make myself a better action".
I had no intention to mention about what I would make until Jackie h've asked me.
I've answered all your questions, without calling you nothing, but Dusty.
When Dave came along with his personal experience and findings, the floating head was mentioned.
Jackie expanded on the floating head theory and clarified the problems commonly associated with the floating head.
I sudgested a "possible solution" to the problem by using a hard surface material locking insert in the receiver as well as the floating head to minimise these problems.
You came along and expressing several doubts and questions and I've answered them all.
You didn't agree with my info and the suitability of a Hastelloy so you've apparently made something that only a Hastelloy could handle the condition. That "was not just" a heat resistance.
When I've asked you what it was, You say it was something to combat abrassion resistance in ASH TRAY handling unit. Wouldn't that possibly have something to do with heat?????
Heat resistant steel- means that the material will keep most of its mechanical/physical properties (that includes abrasion as well) in elevated temperatures. (Elevated temperatures means above 200*C)
Certain cobalt/tungsten based alloys can resist up to 1100*C and still can have similar mechanical properties such as strength/toughness/hardness of high tensile steels in a room temperature.
A floating bolt head to "lock up straight" in an inferior actions. What about a floating head to lock up straight in any action. Isn't that what a Benchrest precision is all about?
Me who owned 43 rifles from .308 to .460WM and went through some 30 000+ rounds I suppose I don't shoot.
As for me to keep my apprentice theories? I admit that I don't know everything and I don't remember everything forever, but you still have a long way to go boy.
I think that somehow a "Chicken wants to be smarter than the Rooster" here.
Shoot better
Peter