Question about Ratigan's book

[scootertrash]

I do not quite understand something in Mike’s book, and hopefully I can explain myself well enough to get an explanation. I’m certainly not qualified to question Mike, I’m just merely trying to understand the strategy.

At several places in the book, Mike makes reference to your first shot going higher than you expected when moving from the sighter target up to the record target. By high, I mean perhaps ¾ of a bullet. Mike says this could possibly happen three out of every ten targets. That part I understand, and it certainly has happened to me.

Mike says to hold up on the subsequent shots, or you are likely to have your next four bullets impact about a full bullet below the first shot. The part I don’t understand is why hold up on the next four shots? (By the way, I have had this happen to me also!) I would have thought the next four would also hit a smidge higher than the sighter target as well. Apparently this is not true. Is it because the rear bag has changed when moving from the sighter up to the record? If so, why is it just for the first shot?

And lastly, what happens if you need to go back down to the sighter in the middle of the group, let’s say between shots three and four. Would you shoot shot four using the same aim as shot one, then hold up again on shot five? All this of course, is assuming you are shooting the same condition for each shot.

I hope I explained what I’m trying to learn well enough, and thanks.

Mike

 

[Boyd Allen]

I think that this is a bag thing, and corrects itself after the first shot when the rifle is in its new raised position. I am not sure what exactly causes it. There are more than one theory. One is that a temporary bind is created where the front bag ears clamp around the stock, releasing during the first record shot. Others believe that the slight rise in the front shifts the load on the rear ears, and that the butt settles as the first shot is fired. I don't know. Maybe others who have figured this out will respond. When I have had it happen, it was a lot more than one bullet hole high, and I raised my point of aim, which turned out to be the right thing to do. Maybe you could slide the rifle in the bags before your first record shot to simulate the effect of firing it the first time in that position.

 

[jmaisto]

Boyd,
The last line in your response makes more sense than anything I can think of.

 

[Jerry H]

Try this

The fix is in the rear bag. Set the bag so that the highest part of the bottom that the stock rides on is towards the rear instead of the front. The rear bag is much more critical than the front because the gun is recoiling against it instead of away from the front. A gun that is top heavey would be opposite. The problem is more visible at 100 yards than 200 because of a double angular change across the rear bag. This issue varies with the bag construction and fill.

 

[JDS]

Send me $200.00 cash or money order and I'll tell you how to fix the first shot on record dilema. I've been trying to get the bag makers to fix this problem for years and Not one of them could care less.

 

[Dave D.]

Jd

You did talk to someone who might be able to help. You never asked.

There are more than a few shooters who no longer have the "first record" problem mentioned. It is in the bag(s)

Got something that seems to work much better. Call me.

...Dave

 

[goodgrouper]

I had this problem big time for awhile until I loosened the side pressure screws on the front bag and switched the rear bag to a better fitting bunny-eared bag with less friction. Problem went away immediately.

 

[GLF]

first high..... then hold up and machine gun the other 4

it sound natural.. easy to do and in fact is really simple: hold for the amount of vertical and u'll print a scramer. dreams

first u must identify such kind of shot, and not a misreading the condition or a bad handling the rifle.

last year SS i've suffered the first hi syndrome a t least 3 times during the event: result? two 4 and 1 and a nice .300 at 200yds.

after a long discussion over the subject with Mike , i use the reticule over and it easier to find out the errant shot!

why it happens? don't go crazy with it, it happens and ur be abe to solve it , not to know why...

my 0,02 euro cent words

GLF

 

[Jefferson]

explain the reticle over

and how you solved the problem

thanks jeff

 

[scootertrash]

I think he was referring to have your POI below the horizontal in the scope. That makes it easier to detect if the first shot went high, as it will be closer to the horizontal line.

Thanks for the replies gentlemen...I appreciate it.

Mike

 

[GLF]

exactly, havin' the poi under the horizontal line, u could detect immediatly if a shot goes up, over that line and hold for the amount u need.
as i said , the errant 1st shot it must be over the line, not just a 1/2 or a 3/4 bullet high... btw in Mike's book there's a nice figure drawing explain that.

 

[abintx]

Mike ...

I used to have that problem until I started following Al Nyhus's advice to ALWAYS press the buttstock into the rear sandbag before firing the first round. I do that multiple times before the match begins.

If I don't do that my shots impact low. Watch what happens to the buttstock after you initially push it down into the rear bag. You'll see it rebound upward as the ears resist the downward pressure (unless you have sloppy, lightly filled ears). After you do it repeatedly, the ears settle down, take the shape of the stock, and the upward pressure subsides.

 

[jGEE]

I understand what you guys are saying. I don't understand why. With a properly bedded rifle how does a slight difference in pressure on the rear of the stock change POI? It's probably a dumb question but i don't understand. thanks joe

 

[Pete Wass]

I have noticed this

regardless of the rifle I am shooting and I have several I use on a regular basis, the stocks will sink lower and lower as I proceed to the point where I have to adjust my front rest to be on paper where I need to shoot. I am using a big Gator rear and it is moderately hard. What I have tried is to thump the stock down before I begin to shoot and that does help some but the bag-stock seems to continue to sink. I have not noticed any deteriation in my groups when I am testing and do not shoot Group, the game.

One thing I have noticed is sometimes when I am shooting at bull #3 ( I am a Score Shooter) the bullet strike will be @ 11:00 and repeatedly so; usually not enough to loose a point but enough to miss the dot and even with holding for it sometimes. What is causing that? Fun ain't it?

 

[goodgrouper]

I used to have that problem until I started following Al Nyhus's advice to ALWAYS press the buttstock into the rear sandbag.

Exactly Art. "PRESS" is the keyword here. I see lots of guys pound their rifles into the bag and I cringe everytime I see it. One feller over here even uses a rubber mallet to tap his stock in. About that time I have to look away........
And then guys wonder why their scopes fall apart.

 

[goodgrouper]

I understand what you guys are saying. I don't understand why. With a properly bedded rifle how does a slight difference in pressure on the rear of the stock change POI? It's probably a dumb question but i don't understand. thanks joe

It has to do with angles and friction when shooting free recoil. Even though the rifle is properly bedded, how the gun recoils affects where the shot is placed.

At our range here in Springville, our 100 yard target frame is level with the benches. But our 200 yard target frame is up on a backstop about 10 feet higher than level. When going from 100 to 200, the angle the gun sits in the bags is changed and it affects POI. If you want consistent bag "grip" on the rifle, you must change your rest feet a bit. Or you can simply let the new POI be where it may and dial your scope. But if you're not aware of the change in gun angle and you have a rest/bags that are touchy with how the gun has to sit in them, you can get mighty frustrated. I have spent hours and hours fiddling and experimenting with this.

A few guys shooting Farley's have caught on to this and have adjusted the rest top way up in the back and down in the front so that the fore end of the rifle only touches a little strip of the bag. Kind of like a roller point on the old cruiser weight rifles. Similar anyway. I don't know why the Farley's are more susceptible to this but some say that they are more consistent this way.

I shoot a Jon Loh rest and I have found that I get best results when as much of the front bags' flat comes in contact with the flat on the bottom of the fore end on my rifle. So I adjust the base of the pedestal to allow for this to happen whatever the angle I'm shooting at.