PPC Cases, want to know more about them!

Joe Woosman said:
Using new brass all the time will provide consistency. Using older well maintained brass could possibly be better, but only if they are not overworked by the dies.
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We are assuming the dies are in fact doing the correct job, so you are suggesting, new brass within 6-8 firings will give more consistant tension?
What can be done to maintain brass? once this tension has waivered?
Good Shooting!
Jim
 
JRB said:
We are assuming the dies are in fact doing the correct job, so you are suggesting, new brass within 6-8 firings will give more consistant tension?
What can be done to maintain brass? once this tension has waivered?
Good Shooting!
Jim
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What I am suggesting is mechanically overworking the brass with dies can and will create inconsistencies. New brass with proper prep work should be very consistent. For those who don't have a good "system", (Brass, chamber and dies that work together). The brass quality can deteriorate over subsequent loadings. These people would probably be supporters of the new brass is better theory. And there is certainly nothing wrong with burning through new brass if it gives you confidence.

I feel the speed and pressure of fire forming does improve the mechanical properties of brass. So if you are not introducing problems with your loading process, it is possible for brass to improve over many firings.

The only thing that can be done once your brass is inconsistent, unfortunately, is chuck them or travel the annealing road. I have traveled that road and don't plan to again. It does work and there are many supporters of it. I personally feel hard brass is better. Getting it hard without causing problems is the challenge.
 
JerrySharrett said:
I would expect a larger group and not all of it as vertical. If not, why make new brass for the big shoots?
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Thanks Jerry, this is most helpful
I have never been able to achive fine tuning or improvements with neck tensions, not knowing enough about it, just trying to get the handle on all these varaibles
This has given me lots to consider
Jim
 
Joe,
Are you in the .262" neck camp?
when necks wander in tension do you seat bullets, and then sort by feel?
how does this work at a match
Jim
 
JRB said:
Joe,
Are you in the .262" neck camp?
when necks wander in tension do you seat bullets, and then sort by feel?
how does this work at a match
Jim
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Jim - I can't help you any here. I'm very lazy. When I see a variable, I fix it so I don't have to fiddle around with meticulous rituals.
 
alinwa said:
OK, just between you an me :) One of my "methods" is to check for "sufficient" neck tension thusly...... I first load up some primed empties and pop them in the chamber, "did the bullet move?" I then fill the cases about 7/8 full with COW and pop a couple more.... "did the bullet move?"

When the answer is "no," plus a little more, I've got "enough" neck tension.

Now the hard part is getting it to keep.

al
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Al - Sorry! Your post fell off my radar for some reason. Have you done this? I was planning to but just haven't gotten to it yet. What case are you talking about? I'm talking about the neck turned PPC cases since there is so much data on the tuning of these things. I don't know if you can get enough neck tension to contain the bullet. Maybe it would in fact limit a tuning tool if you could. Please debunk at will.
 
I seem to remember reading something about one benchrest competitor who turned his necks with steps in them, and seated his bullets with his fingers, inserting them into the the thinner part of the neck, to the point where the step at the beginning of the thicker part stopped them. If I remember the story correctly, based on the results he got, it worked rather well. To me, it seems that the proper test for having enough neck tension for a benchrest round is whether it can be loaded without the bullet falling out, or powder being spilled if a round has is unchambered. Beyond that I think that targets are the appropriate measuring device.
 
Well Boyd, I've always found that if you can figure out the hows and whys things work, it unmuddys the water for clearer navigation. How will you ever learn what is important and what is not if you never raise the question?
 
I did not mean to imply that you are not. I did not take your post as such. I am just not if favor of using the target as the measuring device. It doesn't answer the how or why.
 
A lot of times, discussions are about various posters imaginings of how something works. It is unavoidable, and I do not mean to discourage it. I was not saying anything other than at the end of it all, it should be about results.
 
Boyd Allen said:
I seem to remember reading something about one benchrest competitor who turned his necks with steps in them, and seated his bullets with his fingers, inserting them into the the thinner part of the neck, to the point where the step at the beginning of the thicker part stopped them. If I remember the story correctly, based on the results he got, it worked rather well. To me, it seems that the proper test for having enough neck tension for a benchrest round is whether it can be loaded without the bullet falling out, or powder being spilled if a round has is unchambered. Beyond that I think that targets are the appropriate measuring device.
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A few years ago several shooters did the "step neck" thing, including Mr Cook & Bottle Person. Tommy did (HFV) and Ferris Pindell did just to name a few. Then there was the "fitted neck" period where the necks were tight enough after firing the cases didn't need resizing. Then V133 and MAXO loads cam along. One set of cases per grand agg!

About 4 years ago I was shooting along side a well known component dealer whose daughter just started a thread and his case box fell off the bench and spilled a few loaded cases and some of the bullets just fell out. He just grinned and said "You didn't see that did you"?
 
Well I ate some humble pie tonight and I wish I could take back what I said about primers seating bullets because I now believe I was wrong. I did the Al test tonight with a 22ppc. Didn't move the bullet like I thought it would. Got .018 out of it and it's on the lighter side for neck tension. Seating deeper in the case did not send the bullet deeper in the barrel. Statement has beed debunked. It's amazing how clear something can be in your mind if it makes sense to your brain. I'll edit my previous post so as to not mislead anyone.
 
JerrySharrett said:
A few years ago several shooters did the "step neck" thing, including Mr Cook & Bottle Person. Tommy did (HFV) and Ferris Pindell did just to name a few. Then there was the "fitted neck" period where the necks were tight enough after firing the cases didn't need resizing. Then V133 and MAXO loads cam along. One set of cases per grand agg!

About 4 years ago I was shooting along side a well known component dealer whose daughter just started a thread and his case box fell off the bench and spilled a few loaded cases and some of the bullets just fell out. He just grinned and said "You didn't see that did you"?
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Jerry,
Are you suggesting in fact, he had next to no neck tension?
So that variable was somewhat removed
You have got me to thinking, we use a powder which is readily available here, ADI, Benchmark 2. Other powders are available but nearly double in price.

We have an old Stolle LV, 6 PPC with .262" neck, and it is owned by my friend, for years we have been thretening to toss the barrel, it makes a good spare barrel if another friend wants to come out for a shoot. We think it has fired close to 2500 rounds, it runs no neck tension, as my friend is too cheap to buy a smaller neck bush, when you load it you have to pull the bullet forward than insert it in the breach. just in case the bullet has fallen into the case!
Surprisingly it can shoot as well or better than our much prized BAT SV LV set ups. In this case, with the powder we use, it does not have a negative effect on accuracy!
Good Shooting!
Jim
 
New brass, how many firings?
When getting ready for a match, how many firings does it take to get the brass ready?
any other tweaks?
Jim
 
JRB said:
Jerry,
Are you suggesting in fact, he had next to no neck tension?
So that variable was somewhat removed

Surprisingly it can shoot as well or better than our much prized BAT SV LV set ups. In this case, with the powder we use, it does not have a negative effect on accuracy!
Good Shooting!
Jim
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Go frigger?? Yes, there was apparently no neck tension in those loads. Sometimes, as in your old Stolle vs new BAT, apples are not always apples. Generally though I'll take the new barrel and new brass. The action is not the issue, IMO, since they both have proven to work very well.
 
Fitted neck

I shot 6 American w/fitted neck. Once I started w/my Hall rifle, 1st target was .420"@ 100yds. I put the gun back in the case, got 6 American to the line, on second thru 5th target. This rifle had fitted neck and I had no sizing die at all.
I shot 4 targets in the ones, (starting w/.102") After the agg was over, they forced me to accept the trophy I had just won. @ the next match, shooting unlimited class (10 shot) w/this 10-1/2 lb rifle , I started w /impressive .181" and ended third in the agg. Rifle was stolen before the Fayette match. Now all that being said, Ted Manning shoots all his w/o any neck tension. He just sets the bullet on top of the powder and shoots. He shot a 4 gun match @ Wilmington NC, . He used 4 different barrels, one in each class, same brass. He won the 4 gun.
JRB said:
Jerry,
Are you suggesting in fact, he had next to no neck tension?
So that variable was somewhat removed
You have got me to thinking, we use a powder which is readily available here, ADI, Benchmark 2. Other powders are available but nearly double in price.

We have an old Stolle LV, 6 PPC with .262" neck, and it is owned by my friend, for years we have been thretening to toss the barrel, it makes a good spare barrel if another friend wants to come out for a shoot. We think it has fired close to 2500 rounds, it runs no neck tension, as my friend is too cheap to buy a smaller neck bush, when you load it you have to pull the bullet forward than insert it in the breach. just in case the bullet has fallen into the case!
Surprisingly it can shoot as well or better than our much prized BAT SV LV set ups. In this case, with the powder we use, it does not have a negative effect on accuracy!
Good Shooting!
Jim
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JRB said:
Boyd,
Some good tips and advise, discussion on some history of the .262" neck.
Just out of interest what did the Sako brass measure before it was neck turned?
I somewhat believe that many of the misconseptions about turning necks, in the early days, was compounded by the lack of having the right tools for the job, or lack there of.
I have been turning necks for over 15 yrs, and only recently have been able to produce quality necks.
It is clear that neck tesion and or variations, are a constant focus for the BR shooter, How do you control variations in this?
Is this ultimately effecting the case grip on the bullet? or release pressure?
Good Shooting !
Jim
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I still have a small number of the balloon head Sako .220 Russian cases. Using a ball mike on some of the cases before necking them up to 6mm, I get from .0115" to .013 thick. Not sure how much they thin when they are necked up to 6mm. When I was making .22 Waldog cases with the Sako brass, I neck turned for a .010" thick neck using a .246" neck diameter on the chamber. Probably a good thing that there isn't a lot of the Sako brass around any longer as I seriously doubt that it would handle the pressures being shot today in Lapua brass. I expanded up three Sako .220 Russian cases to be ready to neck turn to a 6mm and they were in the .011 to .012" thick range for the most part. If they were turned to .010", they would work with a .265" necked PPC. The .220 Russian cases that I have left were some of the last batch that Don Geraci sold when he was the go to guy for .220 Russian cases. I have no idea whether the earlier .220 Russian cases were thinner than the later cases. I'm not sure as to what the date these cases would have been made, but expect either late '80's or maybe early '90's.
 
Does anyone know what powder(s) were used for these no tension and fitted neck loads? I would be surprised if 133 worked with no tension. Also, on the fitted, I presume that there was some neck tension but that it was on the low end. How close do loaded rounds have to be to chamber neck diameter so that their necks snap back instead of being deformed and requiring sizing?
 
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