Poor Accuracy on first two shots

[Stevo]

Good Morning Benchrest shooters,

I have an issue that I'm sure is a rookie issue that 99% of you know. Would like your advise. Thanks for taking the time to read and answer.

I have a 19 year old Remington Sendero fluted SS BBL in 220 Swift, Nikon scope.

I shot it 20 times after a first bought it and it sat in the back of my safe all this time. When I shot it the first few times I cleaned it after each shot using copper cleaner, ect.

Never liked the trigger and recently bought and installed a Timney trigger, MUCH better.

I loaded up 20 rounds seating the bullet .01" before touching the lands. 55gr BTHP Match.

I shot 5 shots, first one high, next lower, then all one ragged hole. Although I have not seen that much difference on a Hoppe's shot, chalked it up to that.

Cleaned and repeated with the same results two more times, went home.....

Went back the next day with some factory rounds that I had and didn't clean rifle. Shot 4 5 shot groups that all had the same results, first shot about 1.5" off, next about an 1", then very nice group most touching at 100 yards. Each group starts from a cold bbl.

I have run a dollar bill down the outside of the bbl and it doesn't touch until I'm at the receiver.

My first thought is a stock issue. I did take the stock off for installation of the new trigger.

If you believe it's a stock issue can you tell me if there is a spl way you like to torque the screws on the stock and what torque you use? I just tried to tighten evenly and what I thought was a proper torque with the click in my elbow....

I have two other rifles that I shoot in .308 and 300 Win Mag and have never had this issue.

Thanks again for your answers,
Steve

 

[philipbrousseau]

a clean bore will put 1 or 2 out and it is possible changing powders may need a couple shots to get all bullets running on the same surface in the barrel. also after removing and replacing the stock the receiver will move around for a few shots if not properly bedded. if it were mine after having seen the poor fit of these bedding blocks i'd have it glass bedded over the block by a good smith. they torque those block bedded rifles up to 65 in. lbs. the few i have had needed and were much more consistent after glass bedding over the block. a properly pillar & glass bedded hunting rifle can have the stock removed and replaced with no p.o.i. change. hope this helps.

 

[Stevo]

Philip,

Thanks for the help.

Never heard of accuracy issue after changing powder. Thanks.

Figured the change of impact was due to the bbl heating after not cleaning and shooting several groups from a "cold" bbl and the problem repeating. So I assume that you agree the heating is causing the initial two "fliers" and the answer is professional bedding?

I have never seen my two .30 cal rifles to this. Must have better action bbl fit? Are larger calibers less prone to this problem?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Mike Bryant]

Check the bedding on the rifle. Rest your index finger between the barrel and forend. Loosen off the front guard screw if you can feel the barrel move away from the stock, it needs to be bedded as the bedding isn't stress free. If you have a dial indicator, attach a dial indicator to the barrel with the stylus resting on the forend tip. Loosen off the front guard screw and if the indicator moves more than .002" when the screw is loosened, then it needs to be bedded. Not uncommon for aluminum bedding block stocks to need to be bedded to get the action to sit in the stock stress free.

 

[Stevo]

Thanks Mike,

I do have a dial indicator. I will torque to the 65 in pounds first. I'll give it a try by tomorrow evening. Thanks for the objective test!


Steve

 

[Stevo]

Check the bedding on the rifle. Rest your index finger between the barrel and forend. Loosen off the front guard screw if you can feel the barrel move away from the stock, it needs to be bedded as the bedding isn't stress free. If you have a dial indicator, attach a dial indicator to the barrel with the stylus resting on the forend tip. Loosen off the front guard screw and if the indicator moves more than .002" when the screw is loosened, then it needs to be bedded. Not uncommon for aluminum bedding block stocks to need to be bedded to get the action to sit in the stock stress free.

Mike I did as you suggested, and it moved .002". I don't feel great about the measurement as any movement had the indicator moving. I have loaded 20 more rounds and will start with a clean bore and shoot a few groups and hope for the best. I DID'NT have it torqued to 65 inch pounds last two times to the range, was less. I'll see what happens with the correct torque....

Thanks to all for the help!
Steve

 

[Mike Bryant]

I hold the rifle vertically and have two pieces of steel clamped to the barrel with a couple of screws. Then use a magnetic base on the flat piece of steel. How solid the dial indicator is attached to the barrel will have a lot of effect on what you see when you loosen off the guard screws one at a time. You can't just use the magnetic base against the barrel and hope to get a good reading. Your .002" sounds good though as it is an amplification of the actual movement in the bedding block. .002" movement between the barrel and forend is way less movement at the action area.

 

[Stevo]

I hold the rifle vertically and have two pieces of steel clamped to the barrel with a couple of screws. Then use a magnetic base on the flat piece of steel. How solid the dial indicator is attached to the barrel will have a lot of effect on what you see when you loosen off the guard screws one at a time. You can't just use the magnetic base against the barrel and hope to get a good reading. Your .002" sounds good though as it is an amplification of the actual movement in the bedding block. .002" movement between the barrel and forend is way less movement at the action area.

Thanks agin Mike!

Yes I could see how that would be a great way to use the dial indicator. My magnetic base has a "V" shape so it help well, but probably not as well as your method. I measured the VERY end of the forend.

I BELIEVE that it might be better since I torqued the two screws at 65 inch pounds. It was slightly less.

I shot it again yesterday, about 80 shots fired now. It still is off on the first couple shots, however it was not a great test as I didn't measure each powder load. Was in a hurry and wondered how much difference the error in bench rest powder thrower would make. My resulting groups we not near as close. SO I will measure each powder load and go again. I will determine if the error was corrected from proper torque or if the few tenths difference in the powder thrower were responsible for the group opening up enough to cover the the first few throwers.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Wilbur]

The rifle shot exactly the same. There's no need to weigh powder just to have it happen all over again. Your rifle just shoots the first two bullets out when it's cold. Bed the action and if it still does the same get another barrel.

What's the group size - both with and without those first two?

 

[Stevo]

The rifle shot exactly the same. There's no need to weigh powder just to have it happen all over again. Your rifle just shoots the first two bullets out when it's cold. Bed the action and if it still does the same get another barrel.

What's the group size - both with and without those first two?

Wilbur the photo that has one group, if I do this right, is the first group before I used a torque wrench to reinstall the barreled action and I weighed each powder charge. This group was indicative of the issue. Another shooter and a couple rifles on this target so as not to be confusing just cropped this rifle's group. The target with several groups, was after torquing the stock correctly but NOT weighing each charge. SO I sorta feel like this is inconclusive as the entire group suffered. It DID appear that the one furthest out was the first shot still. Will weight each powder charge again and give it another whirl......

I don't plan on spending a bunch of money on this rifle. I bought it almost 20 years ago, shot maybe 20 round through it in the first year and have not shot it since. I have an EXCELLENT shooting Styer in .308 and Remington Sendero .300 Win Mag. Just thought it would be fun to work up a load for the .220 Swift. I have never shot completion and would guess the would not be the rifle to do it anyway.

OPEN FOR SUGGESTIONS....

Hate to post my targets on a board that has outstanding shooters! Guess I should say this, but think you know, one inch squares, shot at 100yards. Point of aim was the closest intersection on the targets.

Anyone close to Houston?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Zebra13]

Steve,

It looks and sounds to me like your barrel has a stress-relief issue. There is residual stress in the barrel from something...rifling, profiling, whatever...that is causing your point of impact changes. It points one way when cold, and another way when warm. Shoot a 5-shot group, starting with a cold barrel. If history repeats, the first two will be out, and than you'll get a nice three-shot group. Then, without letting the barrel cool, shoot another 5-shot group and see what happens. If I'm on the right track, you should get a nice 5-shot group.

The bedding issues that I've dealt with have resulted in big groups, or two groups within a 5-shot group, i.e., the "2 and 3". And if your rifle only shoots at a specific torque setting, you've got a bedding issue.

I've also seen a primer change cause what you're experiencing. I had a Contender in .223 that would shoot nice, round groups of about a half-inch with CCI 400 primers. When I tried Remington 7 1/2's, I got vertical stringing for the first two or three shots, and then it settled down and shot round ones. Same powder charge, same bullet, same case. Damndest thing. That is the only time I've ever seen that, though, and I've putzed around with a few guns in my time. Your rifle has done it with handloads and factory fodder, so the primer is probably not the issue.

A good quality powder measure, and a good, CONSISTENT technique will more than suffice for your purposes. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about weighing charges. A LOT of benchrest matches have been won using charges thrown from a powder measure.

And only change one variable at a time, or else you'll be chasing your tail til' kingdom come...

Justin

 

[Wilbur]

I don't think I know of anybody that shoots their first shot on record (competition)....because it's likely not to go where the rest of 'em goes. Short of the first shot, I'm thinking that's pretty good for a "factory" rifle.

I suppose I'm trying to say that if a $3500 rifle with everything possible done to or on it won't shoot the first shot where the others will go...why try to do it with that one.

You can hit anything as large as 1-1/2 inches at 100 yards at any time...pretty good! Your rifle will do better if you keep trying stuff but trying stuff gets a little expensive...depending on what you try.

 

[Stevo]

Steve,

It looks and sounds to me like your barrel has a stress-relief issue. There is residual stress in the barrel from something...rifling, profiling, whatever...that is causing your point of impact changes. It points one way when cold, and another way when warm. Shoot a 5-shot group, starting with a cold barrel. If history repeats, the first two will be out, and than you'll get a nice three-shot group. Then, without letting the barrel cool, shoot another 5-shot group and see what happens. If I'm on the right track, you should get a nice 5-shot group.

The bedding issues that I've dealt with have resulted in big groups, or two groups within a 5-shot group, i.e., the "2 and 3". And if your rifle only shoots at a specific torque setting, you've got a bedding issue.

I've also seen a primer change cause what you're experiencing. I had a Contender in .223 that would shoot nice, round groups of about a half-inch with CCI 400 primers. When I tried Remington 7 1/2's, I got vertical stringing for the first two or three shots, and then it settled down and shot round ones. Same powder charge, same bullet, same case. Damndest thing. That is the only time I've ever seen that, though, and I've putzed around with a few guns in my time. Your rifle has done it with handloads and factory fodder, so the primer is probably not the issue.

A good quality powder measure, and a good, CONSISTENT technique will more than suffice for your purposes. I wouldn't worry a whole lot about weighing charges. A LOT of benchrest matches have been won using charges thrown from a powder measure.

And only change one variable at a time, or else you'll be chasing your tail til' kingdom come...

Justin

Justin,

Thanks for the help and advise.

I will shoot a couple of 5 shot groups maybe tomorrow evening and will load weighing each powder charge to remove that variable.

When I was shooting regularly, 15 years ago, I did have good results with my powder thrower, Redding BR?. I was shooting my .300 Win Mag and would reload the same case while the bbl cooled. Well as much as a bbl can cool in the hot Texas summer...

I will play with the thrower another day and try for consistency. I think I was seeing throws within .2 grs a few weeks ago.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Stevo]

I don't think I know of anybody that shoots their first shot on record (competition)....because it's likely not to go where the rest of 'em goes. Short of the first shot, I'm thinking that's pretty good for a "factory" rifle.

I suppose I'm trying to say that if a $3500 rifle with everything possible done to or on it won't shoot the first shot where the others will go...why try to do it with that one.

You can hit anything as large as 1-1/2 inches at 100 yards at any time...pretty good! Your rifle will do better if you keep trying stuff but trying stuff gets a little expensive...depending on what you try.

Wilbur,

Thanks for the reality of what I should expect. Certainly does make sense.

I completed a rifle shooting school MANY years ago and first shot was the important shot. I had always shot from a cold bbl that had at least one shot through it after cleaning. My drill was to clean after shooting for the day and then shoot one to prep for the next. With my rifle at that time it worked well and really the cleaning didn't affect the next shot very much.

If I can't get this rifle shooting well, I might look into bedding if there is a chance it fixes the fliers. I really don't need to have three rifles shooting better than I can.. I'll go back to shooting the 308 and 300.

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out with this issue.

Steve