Pointing tools - What's the deal?

Law Dawg

Jim,
Thanks for sharing your process of closing meplats.

With the procedure you describe, I would be very weary of introducing a mass imbalance at the bullet tip. I'm talking about the step where you uniform the inside of the meplat. How can you be sure that you're drilling (or reaming?) the hole exactly on axis? Even using a collet and perfectly aligned tail stock, there's still the issue of cutter drift.

Obviously if that hole is drilled even slightly off center, it's bad news. Even if you can close the meplat to a needle point, if you're hole isn't perfectly centered the bullets will fly with an imbalance and not be as precise.

I completely believe that your process works for you, however, I am curious about the grouping potential of bullets treated as you describe. Have you shot groups of stock bullets and treated bullets to compare group size?

If you are able to do this and still shoot good groups, then I think that's quite an accomplishment. However, I would stop short of saying it's 'easy'. Not everyone has a mini-lathe and personal connections with Mr. Pindell;)

Take care,
-Bryan
 
Closing meplats

Bryan:

Your response and concerns are most appreciated, and your points are noted. BTW, Most of my ID uniforming of the meplat is done on the .338 SMK in both 300 grain and the old 320 grain, of which I have more than a few. They need all the help they can get.

Let me first say that I went to Ferris Pindell in 2002 for the purpose of developing a meplat closing die for the 300 grain SMK used in my 1000 yd BR heavy gun chambered in my version of a blown out 338 Lapua Magnum, the 338 UGA. During this process, I paid for ALL of the research and development of the die -- THE MOTHER of all the point up dies -- a specially trued press, and a mini lathe about 8.5 inches long. We wanted a bullet uniforming package. I still have a sample package of 100 grain bullets that Ferris made in his own dies and then pointed up. I would shot them, but they mean too much to me. There will never be another Ferris Pindell.

During the development of the die, Ferris and I found that the jackets were so thick at the meplat on the large SMKs that it was difficult to obtain the results we wanted. We were also concerned because the core material coming way too far up into the meplat and not with much uniformity. So, I suggested that we trim the meplats (like David Tooley and Scott Fletcher developed at Hawks Ridge) to clean them and ream the jacket walls at the meplat to uniform the thickness at the location of the closing. I have several cutting tools to perform this task, but the one that worked the best was sort of a drill that enlarged to a cone shape at its base -- it looks like a modified end mill but I can't remember what it is called. This worked perfectly as it thinned the jacket material with a taper at the location of the trimmed meplat. On the large SMKs, I also "flare" just a bit prior to closing The drill portion of the cutter also uniformed the depth of the core material. I then have a simple proces to smooth the finished meplat. The bullets shot great and I won the 1000 yd monthly match at Hawks Ridge the very first time I shot these bullets. The fps on the load was 2929 with the SMKs and the ES was single digit.

While Ferris and I were developing the die, we quickly figured out that we could design the same die to close the meplats on any bullet from the original target of the .338 on down to conventional .22 and 6mm conventional BR match bullets. So, as long as we were in for a penny, we dove in for a pound. The die will interchange to close all of these with ease. However, I was much more interested at the time in the 30 cal 187 BIBs and .338 bullets. Ferris designed lathe to center up on these projectiles perfectly.

As to the die, the lathe and the special press modifications were designed as a total bullet prep package -- as system if you will -- everything runs true.

In the only year that I ever shot a full season at Hawks Ridge, I won the HG 10 match score agg. using two different guns, with a small 10 shot group of 4.8xx shot with closed meplats on 147 Clinch River VLD bullets out of a 6.5-284Shehane. I came very close to setting an IBS 10 match score record, but I screwed that up and won for group that month instead.

I have never had a problem with any of the bullets I have ever pointed up. Some point up better than others, i.e., a VLDs points up "nicer" than a 142 SMK. The unaltered 300 and 320 SMKs are so ugly at the meplat that they look like the mountains on the Sierra box -- but I know how to point them up like a dart without even trimming the meplats.

On a lark, I sent 58 6mm 106 Clinch River bullets to Jason Baney of 6mmBR.com as I respected him as a skilled 1000 yd bench competitor and tester. The bullets had been pointed up with the Pindell die, but no other sorting. I gave Jason no other information, I asked nothing of him except to just test the bullets and tell me what he thought. He tested the bullets at the 1022 yd Pa BR Club and the results were significant. Shooting in a round robin manner with his 6BR, the pointed bullets shot a five shot group of 2.xxx inches. The unaltered CR bullets shot a 5.xxx group -- nice but about 18 inches lower than the closed meplats. In fact, Jason posted the groups and his experience on this board, and you did some very favorable calculations on the % increase in fps needed by the unaltered bullets to match the closed meplats. You might recall your findings. BTW, Jason won the Heavy Gun division of the World Open with this same light gun, chambered in 6BR, shooting -- closed meplats. A giant killer in the hands of a real rifleman got it done.

In the year that I turned 60, I decided that I wanted to shoot long range prone. I have two Gilkes-Ross prone guns. One is a 6BR and the other is what I call a 7mm Shehane -- it is the 284 case with the same 35 degree shoulder but with less body taper giving the round execellent performance. I can easily run 2950 with 175 SMK and 180 Bergers with no pressure signs and single digit ES. I know you shoot a 284 in your long range prone guns (and you shoot it mighty damn good indeed), so you can appreciate the performance of the Shehane chambering.

In a 1000 yd prone competition at Butner last winter, I shot 45X I believe, not counting two cross-fires, with my BR shooting 105 FLAT BASE BIB bullets with the meplats closed. There was a strong fish tail wind but if I settled on a condition and the bullets were right on call -- if I did not screw up. This was a scope match and the FB Bibs shot 1.75 minutes flatter than my unaltered VLDs according to the 1/4 clicks on my NXS. In 2004, I won the Georgia F-Class Championship at 600 yards with closed meplats on 187 BIBs. In 2006, I won the Georgia F-Class Championship at 1000 yards with Knight 200 grain bullets with closed meplats (Jim Murphy had to go back to Kentucky, so I back-doored into the win).

I also qualified as a 600 High Master in October and a 1000 High Master in November. All with closed meplats. The 600 was at River Bend and the 1000 was at Oak Ridge. One of my 600 strings is a pending record for my Sr. age group. Understand, I am not that good -- I am old, 270 lbs., mac degen and cats and astg in both eyes. Sure, I can hold hard, but I am no John Whidden. In my case, it was not the Indian as much as the arrow. I was shooting very good stuff. I had water line elevation on my called center X shots.

I guess what I am saying is that my dies were made by The Master himself, and they produce very true projectiles -- in spite of the short comings of the unaltered bullet. Although I understand what you are saying, as the issues you have raised concerned me as well during the development, I have had nothing but success, thank goodness. To the extent that the center line of the core is "off center" on the 300 and 320 SMKs, my pointing process allows the end product of the closed meplat to be on the center line of the projectile itself. It seems to make a difference. Now on a bullet the quality of a BIB, which is exceptional, I just touch the meplat with the cutter before pointing -- sometimes I just point. They shoot absolutely unreal out of my 300 WSM which is chambered just for that bullet. I have yet to test them in my Barnard Palma rifle, but I expect they will make me happy.

John Whidden came within a breath of winning Perry in 2006 with 6mm closed meplats out of my die but lost to Kent Reeve shooting a 300 Win Mag. in the big blow that year. As you know, John took the Championship with his own closed meplats at Perry in 2007.

I have trimmed thousands of meplats on the .338s and have found that the center of the core may not appear to be centered on many. But, I have been able to "fix" that to the extent that the bullets shoot well. Scott Fletcher and David Tooley do the same thing, except they have developed a technique to insert tips in the bullets. Scott won the Heavy Gun division in the IBS Nationals in 2006 with his 338-378 and modified meplats. They also seem to have "fixed" the off center cores by pointing in line with the center line of the bullet.

John Whidden has developed a die which is very user friendly and can be adjusted immediately to unsorted bullets. For example, 140 Bergers are beautiful and shoot great, but they vary more than a little in OAL. John's die allows you to adjust on the "fly" if you don't like the way an individual bullet is pointed. John and I and other prone and F-Class shooters have tested the closed meplats on John's 1000 yd range -- nice to be a south Georgia farmer and a shooter. I think that John's finding, with a varity of projectiles and calibers, was between one and three minutes improvement -- I stand to be corrected on my recollection.

I really enjoy your technical posts and www, and I am very open to any improvements you suggest -- and please do so. Of course, I am somewhat afraid that if I become too knowledgeable I will screw everything up. Sometimes it is better to just have "stupid confidence" in your loads and favor center while breaking your shot just after the Icon on the point next to you breaks his shot -- I have learned to "wind dawg" the great ones.

I look forward to meeting you at Perry in 2008. Many expect you to be right there near the top when all is said and done.

Jim Hardy
 
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Dave Tooley said:
J Valentine

With all the crazy folds and cracks on the ogive I don't know how you could machine a fine/smaller meplat. Some crazy folds and flaps show up when your just trimming the meplat. All I'm looking for when I trim meplats is a uniform BC. I want accuracy first and foremost. A 3% reduction in BC is nothing compared to .027 variation in BC from bullet to bullet.


Dave
Click to expand...
Dave ,
I understand what you are saying about the uniformaty of BC from bullet to bullet and agree totally .

However I don't understand this part :-- Dave said , " I don't know how you could machine a fine/smaller meplat. "

Not sure who or what you are refering to in the above sentense .
 
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Law Dawg said:
JV:

In looking at the pictures of the custom bullets, here is how you can close the meplats much more. First, the meplats in your pictures are very uniform and also very large, i.e., you may enjoy very fine accuracy at the cost of reduced BC. You can have both.

When I have a meplat that large, especially on .30 cal and .338 projectiles, I uniform the inside of the meplat in a mini lathe built for me by Ferris Pindell. In uniforming the ID of the meplats, the very thick jacket is thinned with a reverse cone shape. Then when I close the already very uniform AND thinned meplats, I can close them as small as I want. There are a few tricks involved, but it is an otherwise easy task.

Good shooting,
Jim Hardy
Click to expand...

Thanks Law Dawg , I will keep that information in mind. However the bullets I showed in the picture are actually hunting bullets and the meplat is left a little large on purpose . I only showed them to illustrate the neater meplat of a lathe trimmed jacket . Jacket is trimmed square before the bullet is made.
I just had that photo handy on the computer. They are both good accurate bullets but core bonding seems to reduce accuracy a small amount.
 
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Jim,

Thanks for the complete description of your process. You've completely convinced me that the way you uniform the meplat ID's prior to pointing has no adverse effect on balance and precision as evidenced by your shooting.

I found the comments about Scott Fletcher and Dave Tooley's activities with tip inserts very interesting. I've played with this notion before, the idea of truncating the nose, center drilling the core and inserting longer, pointier aluminum tips. I even made some of these based on the Sierra 155 gr Palma bullet. With the same load out of my .308, they grouped 25" higher at 1000 yards than the untreated bullets. However this isn't a really fair comparison because the modified bullets only weighed 142 grains, so had a significantly higher MV. I've found the trade-off with tip inserts is the following:
Sure you lower the drag of the bullet by improving the nose shape, but the bullet is lighter than it started, so the BC (function of drag and weight) is helped and hurt at the same time. The end result may not be much of an improvement in BC. However, even if the BC is the same, the bullet is now lighter, and can be fired at greater MV from the same chambering, yielding a net improvement. Uniformity is also achieved, which is probably Dave's biggest concern ("...I want accuracy first and foremost").

I remember reading about JB's tests with the 6mm bullets and being impressed. It's one thing to crunch the numbers and 'predict' the effects of new ideas, but it's still awesome to see when guys like you and Jason get together and do something, take a picture, and post it for everyone to see, and say: "it works like this"! That picture, not my number crunching, is what made me decide to buy a pointing die.

Sounds like you've got a great 7mm chambering. 2950 fps with 180's, no pressure signs and single digit SD is a recipe for success! You and I probably have a similar philosophy on wind: let it blow! To be honest with myself, I couldn't deal with more velocity from the 180's than I'm getting with my straight .284 (2820 fps) recoil wise. For my first 5 years of LR shooting, I shot a 7mm Rem mag with the Sierra 168's and Berger 180's. The velocities were good and made for favorable wind drift numbers, but the recoil was too much for me to deal with comfortably. It took me 5 years to learn that lesson, and I'm not about to forget it! I wish I was like some guys who can comfortably shoot 240's out of a 300 WM, but I'm not.

Thanks again for sharing your experiences. I'll be sending you a PM shortly on an 'off topic' subject.

-Bryan
 
Jim,
The forum wouldn't let me send you a PM. Could you give me your email address? If you don't want to post it, you can just email me at: bsl135@yahoo.com and I'll reply.
Thanks,
-Bryan
 
Meplats

JV:

Those meplats look about as clean and pretty as any I have ever seen. Thanks for your reply.

Jim
 
Meplats

bsl135 said:
Jim,
The forum wouldn't let me send you a PM. Could you give me your email address? If you don't want to post it, you can just email me at: bsl135@yahoo.com and I'll reply.
Thanks,
-Bryan
Click to expand...

Bryan:

Sorry for not being able to PM me. I have been unable to log on the BRC for some time since Wilbur "upgraded" so to speak. This thread inspired me to "re-register" last evening and I probably did not complete all the info requested.

I have sent you an e-mail, and I look forward to the correspondence. BTW, I am terrifed by the wind -- especially when I was running after my High Master classifications. Now that goal is behind me, and I can run after the matches with bad conditions to become a better wind reader and a true rifleman. And, my recent jump into smallbore prone is certainly a huge help.

Favor center,
Jim
 
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J. Valentine said:
Dave ,
I understand what you are saying about the uniformaty of BC from bullet to bullet and agree totally .

However I don't understand this part :-- Dave said , " I don't know how you could machine a fine/smaller meplat. "

Not sure who or what you are refering to in the above sentense .
Click to expand...

JV

I was commenting on your inquiry about a tool that cut and changed the shape of the ogive. I assumed you were talking about chamfering the meplat.

Dave
 
Law Dawg said:
JV:

Those meplats look about as clean and pretty as any I have ever seen. Thanks for your reply.

Jim
Click to expand...

Thanks Law Dawg , My ethos is the same as Dave Tooley I think that a consistant BC from bullet to bullet is the important thing.
So when you close a meplat to the tightest you can get in a point forming die it increases the pressure required to eject the projectile.
This extra ejection pressure actually damages the meplat edge and results in a meplat that has a variable BC .
This gets worse as the ejection pin gets smaller in diameter for the smaller meplat of the longer ogive.
Some dies are better than others and have a better match between the core seater and the point former so it reduces ejection pressures and you get better meplats . As the core seater wears out this match starts to get lost and ejection pressure rises.
Its a common mistake by bullet swagers that have hard bullet ejection to blame the pointforming die. It is more likely that the core swager is producing an oversize shank.
Also it is important that the ejection pin end is very square as some I have seen have been cut with some kind of shear or guillotine and are not square.
This can cause a slight offset to the meplat shape.
I guess this is where meplat trimming starts .
 
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Dave , I was refering to a previous post where someone said their meplat trimmer actually marked the ogive and changed its shape a bit.
I did not like that idea. Thats all.
I would like to add that I know some will turn their nose up at the term " hunting bullet " but the 144 grain unbonded 308 I make is just as accurate as any Berger or Sierra I have used in the past at the ranges I shoot it just shoots a bit lower . Good quality jackets are always a controlling factor.
 
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Meplats

JV:

Respectfully, you would be correct if your were actually making the bullets with a set of Nemi dies for example. On a meplat closing die, there is no ejection pin. You can close them a little or a lot and there is no extra stress. Consistent BC is exactly what is needed so that you can control your vert at long range, thus your group size. There is absolutely nothing about closing a meplat on a properly preped bullet that causes more variation.

As David says, you don't have to trim the meplat much to eliminate MOST of the problems. If you trim your meplats on properly sorted bullets, the OAL will be right at the same on all of them. The resulting meplat closing then becomes very uniform. No down side. With commercial bullets, some extra steps may be necessary go get the uniformity, even with a simple meplat trim. When you work with great bullets, and David loves BIBs, you don't have to spin them; you don't have to sort them by ogive; you don't have to sort them by OAL. You trim the meplat to make uniform that which an ejection pin "messes up." Then when you point them up -- or properly install tips -- you are only enhancing the uniformity of the trim and recapturing and improving the BC you lost (or never had) with the trim. There is no down side.

Of course, much of this is wasted unless you also properly prepare your brass, especially the necks.

As an aside, you really don't want your meplats closed like a FMJ, even if you know how to do this. First, it is not needed. Second, you reach a place of diminishing returns. Vaughn speaks to this issue in his book "Rifle Accuracy Facts." As David says, each individual bullet in the box varies from the one laying next to it. This is not an exact science but only a way to mitigate bullet flaws which are exposed to the conditions when you shoot them at long range.

At 1000 yards, you MUST cut the vert or you are doomed -- both in the BR and Long Range prone games. It is also nice to have at least a higher value ring buffer in case you miss a wind call. The value circles are round so the less vert you have the "larger" each scoreing ring shoots for you. If your gun will not hold a tight vert, you are simply giving away points even with an X-Ring hold.

Additionally, lets say you shoot an X on one shot at 1000 yards, during dead still conditions, and the next shot is a low nine. Was it you or your load in a gun that will not hold waterline vert? What do you do on your next shot? If you chase the spotter on a low nine, and your gun and ammo will not hold vert, you will probably shoot a high nine on your next shot. With properly preped bullets which have been meplat trimmed and meplat closed, the nine would be on you and not the ammo or the gun. You would break your next shot on a center X and it expect it to be there.

The ability to be on call with your shots CANNOT happen with a load that will not hold vert. If you cannot accurately call your shots, you CANNOT learn to read the wind. Now, if you can hold vert, and improve the BC enough to save yourself a point or an X when you miss a call, i will take that every time.

When you leave a Long Range prone match, and your loads are shooting tight vert., whether you win or whether you are last place, you ALWAYS come away with a pretty firm idea of what you did wrong and how to improve the next time out -- because your ammo told you the "truth" on each shot. If you or a friend plots your shots, you have a gold mine of information for improvement. It is FREE -- except for the trouble it takes to properly prep your brass and the projectiles that punch through the conditions and the high value target rings.

Having said all this, there are those who will win BIG doing absolutely nothing but loading their ammo on a progressive press and shooting the same in chambers with .010 to .015 neck clearance. I am not lucky enough to be one of them -- and there are more of "us" than "them."

Thanks for your inquiries, observations and conclusions. Minds and experiences will differ, as always.

Enjoy this great game,
Jim :)
 
" So when you close a meplat to the tightest you can get in a ** point forming die *** it increases the pressure required to eject the projectile "

Not talking about a meplat closing die . I am talking about trying to avoid a meplat closing die.
 
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Palma tips

Here's a picture of the tips and the .30 cal 155 SMK bullets that I was talking about (attached).

-Bryan
 

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Meplats

J. Valentine said:
" So when you close a meplat to the tightest you can get in a ** point forming die *** it increases the pressure required to eject the projectile "

Not talking obout a meplat closing die . I am talking about trying to avoid a meplat closing die.
Click to expand...

JV:

You are correct. That is why many custom bullets have rather large meplats. Breaking pins on these expensive dies is not a good thing.

Jim
 
The shanks on the tips were turned to be a press fit into the holes. No adhesive was used.
 
I thought I'd bump this back up for those who have not had the chance to read all the great information in this thread.

s.
 
Pointing up bullets / meplat closing

Boy how times have changed. The closed meplats now hold several NRA Prone records and National Championships. Sierra has come out with a new Palma bullet which carried the day for our USA shooters at the Spirit of America prone match -- the first commercially closed meplats -- or should I say "kinda closed" meplats.

We have come a long way from "But those bullets will tumble. Who told you this would work? Why don't you win every match if your bullets are so good? What statistical analysis do you have to back up your claims that the closed meplats shoot better at 1000 yards? What top shooter is winning with closed meplats?" And, my all time favorite in the long range prone game: "None of that precision loading @#$% makes any difference in this game. It is the Indian and not the Arrows."

Ferris Pindell, myself, John Whidden, David Tooley and Scott Fletcher just can't get the smile off our faces.

Favor center,
Jim Hardy
 
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