Please advise SS material for barrel nut

[Mozella]

There is no reason to go overboard with hardness or material specs. 17-4PH SS at condition 1025 is about RC 38 and machines nicely. 416 SS also machines well and can be heat-treated to similar hardness. There is no reason to use anything else in the SS spectrum. Definitely do not use 316 or 304 SS as they have a tendency to gall and work harden. In a barrel nut at 100 ft-# torque, stress on the nut is low, enough hardness to prevent wrench deformation is really all that is required.

RWO

I'm with you on this. It doesn't seem like rocket surgery. I'm a Savage guy and I use either factory nuts or available after market nuts. I have no idea of the material or hardness other than these nuts appear to be some flavor of SS. Although the nuts are indeed rather thin, the load is quite low. It is claimed by some that the factory torque is 87 ft lbs. Some guys use 30-35 ft lbs, some use "two medium wacks with a claw hammer", some "as tight as possible", and some "medium hand-tight", whatever that is.

Personally, I use 45 foot pounds with lubrication and I've never had a barrel fall off nor have I ever heard of anyone using purchased Savage barrel nuts have problems with galling, or any other kind of failure. Not to say that someone can't ruin a Savage barrel nut, but I've never heard of it being a common problem in spite of the wide variety of opinions about how to properly tighten the Savage style barrel nut.

Apparently a few guys are actually changing Savage barrels at the range without removing the action from the stock by tapping the grooves using a big screwdriver and a small hammer to unlock and re-lock the barrel nut.

Some of my friends are barely qualified to change a light bulb, yet they change their Savage barrels without difficulty.

It seems to me that galling (if you select the worst possible alloy) might be a consideration, but even that strikes me as a minor issue.

Are people, other than us ordinary Savage owners, really having problems with barrel nut failures?

 

[SGS]

OK.... the reason for not wanting to melonite is simply the wait time/down time/ shipping hassle. Buying my stock pre-hardened as you suggest suits me fine

I'm looking for 1.5" round stock for making 1.450 nuts.

I sent you a PM

Scott

 

[TRA]

OK.... the reason for not wanting to melonite is simply the wait time/down time/ shipping hassle. Buying my stock pre-hardened as you suggest suits me fine

I'm looking for 1.5" round stock for making 1.450 nuts.

You have three materials in the mix, but as long as you keep the nut 6-10 points harder and use quality anti gaul material you should be OK.

Question?????, You mention wanting to make 1.45" nuts. Are you contemplating using a 1.25" od barrel in an action that has a 1.25" internal thread? Such as a BAT L action. Know of anyone that has tried it? Results? Good/Bad??????.

 

[Bob Brushingham]

Pac-Nor sells one for a Remington.

 

[alinwa]

You have three materials in the mix, but as long as you keep the nut 6-10 points harder and use quality anti gaul material you should be OK.

Question?????, You mention wanting to make 1.45" nuts. Are you contemplating using a 1.25" od barrel in an action that has a 1.25" internal thread? Such as a BAT L action. Know of anyone that has tried it? Results? Good/Bad??????.

Yes and no......and yes. Results are good provided enough torque is applied for application. For a 1.25" tenon I would start with 1.75" stock. I will be nutting a 50BMG one a' these daze and it'll take a hawnkin huge hunk of stock! Probably 2"-2-1/4" to start....


IMO all current production nuts, even the un-slotted large tenon Salvage nut are too small for even 1"-1.1" tenons....I use nuts the same diameter as the action. I make Sav/Rem/Wby nuts at 1.350" od.


Here's a story. Back when I started fishing for big fish using BIG equipment and experimenting with high drag pressure I learned something, all of the current fishing knots except the Bimini Twist are insufficient once drag pressure exceeds about 18-20lb for monofilament. I could go on and on about the ins and outs of polymers, copolymers, flourides, P-line, kevlar, spectra, epoxied/cyanoacrylated/encased knots etc etc but suffice it to say we had to make up new knots, knots which we still use and which are still not in any books (I've spoken with the authors, another long story )

THE EXACT SAME THING happened when I started running big cases up to pressure......Savage Nuts?.....at the torque I run to resist movement on large cases I might as well tie a Berkely Power Worm (Pumpkinseed/Salty Craw) around the threads and cover with black tape.


opinionby

al

 

[jackie schmidt]

Al, just one word, which might contradict what some other posters have said.

Do not use 17-4 in the condition A, (annealed), condition.

You can heat treat yourself, but keep in mind, the temperature is very specific, and important. The difference between H900, H1050, and H1150 is only a 250 degree spread. You must be able to hold that exact temperature for a full four hours.

Here is a good sight that explains quite a bit about 17-4.

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/precipitation/17-4_ph_data_bulletin.pdf

 

[alinwa]

Al, just one word, which might contradict what some other posters have said.

Do not use 17-4 in the condition A, (annealed), condition.

You can heat treat yourself, but keep in mind, the temperature is very specific, and important. The difference between H900, H1050, and H1150 is only a 250 degree spread. You must be able to hold that exact temperature for a full four hours.

Here is a good sight that explains quite a bit about 17-4.

http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/precipitation/17-4_ph_data_bulletin.pdf

Wow Jackie, what an awesome site......I understood it easily. And that temperature specificity is scary. I have an antique kiln with about a 5 gallon capacity that I use for rude "heat treating" stuff. I've got "cones" probes and remote sensors which allow me to dial to usable heats but IN NO WAY capable of soaking a part at 1150F for 4 hrs.....



I seem to be hearing from you guys (and from Jackie's site) that 17-4 somewhere in the area of condition 1025 to 1150 will be 34-36 Rockwell 'C' which should offer the desired 8-10 points "difference" to prevent galling and should still be machinable.....So, the way I thread grade 8 bolts on my weenie lathe is upside down, inside out at somewhere around 1000rpm using carbide inserts on a 1/2" boring bar. I get smooth shiney threads on a grade 8 bolt. Would this 17-4 at 1025 that RWO suggests be as easily machined as a typical hardware store grade 8 bolt?

(Forgive me if that question is meaningless I don't truly understand the parameters involved)

tx

al

 

[TRA]

Wow Jackie, what an awesome site......I understood it easily. And that temperature specificity is scary. I have an antique kiln with about a 5 gallon capacity that I use for rude "heat treating" stuff. I've got "cones" probes and remote sensors which allow me to dial to usable heats but IN NO WAY capable of soaking a part at 1150F for 4 hrs.....



I seem to be hearing from you guys (and from Jackie's site) that 17-4 somewhere in the area of condition 1025 to 1150 will be 34-36 Rockwell 'C' which should offer the desired 8-10 points "difference" to prevent galling and should still be machinable.....So, the way I thread grade 8 bolts on my weenie lathe is upside down, inside out at somewhere around 1000rpm using carbide inserts on a 1/2" boring bar. I get smooth shiney threads on a grade 8 bolt. Would this 17-4 at 1025 that RWO suggests be as easily machined as a typical hardware store grade 8 bolt?

(Forgive me if that question is meaningless I don't truly understand the parameters involved)

tx al

Carbide and stainless sometimes refuses to play well. We turn our stainless using Sandvik H-13A inserts. Diamond coated work great but tend to run in excess of 100.00 per. I like the VCGX H13/ CCGX H13.

You need a small electric furnace, with a good process controller keeping the temp stable.

 

[alinwa]

Carbide and stainless sometimes refuses to play well. We turn our stainless using Sandvik H-13A inserts. Diamond coated work great but tend to run in excess of 100.00 per. I like the VCGX H13/ CCGX H13.

You need a small electric furnace, with a good process controller keeping the temp stable.

Ahh yes.....sticky stainless. I guess it's not fair to compare a grade 8 bolt with hardened stainless.


So, to re-state, my intention is to get some 17-4 in condition 1025-1150 and have a go. At least it's a plan now instead of a shot in the dark


Thank you guys for your help!

 

[SGS]

Ahh yes.....sticky stainless. I guess it's not fair to compare a grade 8 bolt with hardened stainless.


So, to re-state, my intention is to get some 17-4 in condition 1025-1150 and have a go. At least it's a plan now instead of a shot in the dark


Thank you guys for your help!

The stuff I'm sending is treated to H1050 and tests at the upper end of the range at Rockwell C37. The 416 tests at RC38. Both quite a bit harder than barrels but machinable. 17-4 has some characteristics of toughness that are hard to describe, but you should have no trouble machining and threading it with good inserts. I have found that it seems to push or deflect the tool more than something at RC26, so you may need to make some very light passes to get to finish size. the good part is that it is not prone to work hardening so light cuts usually finish well.

 

[alinwa]

The stuff I'm sending is treated to H1050 and tests at the upper end of the range at Rockwell C37. The 416 tests at RC38. Both quite a bit harder than barrels but machinable. 17-4 has some characteristics of toughness that are hard to describe, but you should have no trouble machining and threading it with good inserts. I have found that it seems to push or deflect the tool more than something at RC26, so you may need to make some very light passes to get to finish size. the good part is that it is not prone to work hardening so light cuts usually finish well.

Too cool Scott, thank you.

The work hardening thing was my next question, makes it a lot easier not having to peel the rind on every pass.....

 

[alinwa]

So, I finally opened up my Christmas Present from Scott Roeder. Had some quality time down in the shop today with me son-in-law and we threaded a barrel for him....opened up my little package from BRC.....what Scott sent me is 3 nice drops of each and he MARKED THEM with a vibratory....

Got the type, the treat and the RC marked on the end....

THANK YOU MR ROEDER!!!

This will be fun

al

A MERRY CHRISTMAS AND BLESSED NEW YEAR TO ALL....

 

[cloudrepair]

I just made one out of a drop of 4140 so i could put it together right away, worked great.

I'm still going to use some 17-4 drop when I have time to take it to work and heat treat it to the suggested hardness.

Thanks all this has been helpful to me.
Seems I should know more about 17-4 with all the work I've done with it
I guess someone else has always done the heat treating.

 

[TRA]

Al, after some serious delving deep into my knowledge base I recalled something to solve your galling issues. You can either locate some "Nitronics 60" or just do as the action makers and use 4130-40-50- even 4340, and be done with the problem forever.

We always take the high road and leave galling cross threading and other fubars squarely on the backs of the wrenchers to screw up.

 

[ireload2]

Terrible - 17-4 might as well be named Gall O' Matic. It is about the worst material there is for galling.

If you have to use stainless used Nitronic 60 or Gall Tough.
I have worked in 3 different industries where 17-4 had to be used carefully to avoid galling. Most of the time Nitronic 60 was used in the mating part or different Rockwell hardness was used on mating parts to minimize galling.
17-4's basic advantage is that it is cheap and easy to heat treat or you can buy it heat treated and machine it. It has very high tensile strength

I was planing on using some 17-4 here in a bit and plenty of silver grade anti-sieze.
How does that sound?

 

[cloudrepair]

Terrible - 17-4 might as well be named Gall O' Matic. It is about the worst material there is for galling.

If you have to use stainless used Nitronic 60 or Gall Tough.
I have worked in 3 different industries where 17-4 had to be used carefully to avoid galling. Most of the time Nitronic 60 was used in the mating part or different Rockwell hardness was used on mating parts to minimize galling.
17-4's basic advantage is that it is cheap and easy to heat treat or you can buy it heat treated and machine it. It has very high tensile strength

Would 416 stainless be any better?

 

[dmort]

Monel

The only stainless material I have worked with is Monel. It has some of the negative issue's mentioned like threading, galling etc, and I really have nothing to compare it to. Maybe it's too soft to begin with and that is the reason it hasn't been mentioned.

 

[jackie schmidt]

The only stainless material I have worked with is Monel. It has some of the negative issue's mentioned like threading, galling etc, and I really have nothing to compare it to. Maybe it's too soft to begin with and that is the reason it hasn't been mentioned.

In my younger years, we worked quite a bit with K500 Monel, because until the advent of Stainless Steel Prop Shafts made from 17-4, it was the go to material, especially for yachts and pleasure boats.

I haven't seen a piece in 25 years.

Monel is basically about 65 percent nickel, 30 percent copper, with a few other alloying elements. It's tough, highly corrosive resistant, and very expensive.

 

[dmort]

Monel

In my younger years, we worked quite a bit with K500 Monel, because until the advent of Stainless Steel Prop Shafts made from 17-4, it was the go to material, especially for yachts and pleasure boats.

I haven't seen a piece in 25 years.

Monel is basically about 65 percent nickel, 30 percent copper, with a few other alloying elements. It's tough, highly corrosive resistant, and very expensive.

Thanks for the info.

We used Monel for making threaded valve seats for gate valves.

The last time I remember doing that was on our brand new toy...the Leblond.