Pellet sizing

P

pisces

Guest
Hi,

Has the technique of pellet sizing been tried and discarded as being of any use to the benchrest community ?

I ask because my limited testing, done with two types of sizer, parallel sided and tapered, using a LW choked barrel, are far from conclusive - for which I have no explanation. :confused:
 
I ask because sizing, using some form of die, seems to be an easier and quicker method of ensuring consistent head size - as compared to multiple measurements of a pellet head which probably, as manufactured, is not absolutely, perfectly round.
 
check the yellow forum . There is a person with a sorting die by head size available. About the only time I found a sizer to be worth while was many years ago with dirt cheap chi-com pellets( which generally wern't worth wasting time on) There are people using straight from the tin pellets and wining major matches. Head size generally has a pretty good correlation to flyers in any given unit/ diameter. In Air we do not have the initial thump of a powder burner to bump up the projectile to fill the bore- except for the thin area of the skirt, So getting a consistent head size is preferable. You can of course size down but that won't help if you need the larger size for your bore. Back in the 70's/80's I did use sizers as QC wasn't what is today pellet wise. At the time I could buy factory gauged( ?) match pellets at considerably more expense- not sure if they were worth it other than maybe a preceived confidence building factor. Back in the day I was a master class shooter pistol/rifle- eyes aren't much good with iron sights any more, so I have a long history with rather exacting requirements air power wise.
 
I recently bought a Pelletgage and found, more often than not, measured head sizes do not correspond with the tin labels.

So, as the choke on my HW100 is prone to leading, I plan to buy only pellets that are a genuine 5.51 head size and/or swage down to 5.51 using a sizer.
 
Perhaps

I recently bought a Pelletgage and found, more often than not, measured head sizes do not correspond with the tin labels.

So, as the choke on my HW100 is prone to leading, I plan to buy only pellets that are a genuine 5.51 head size and/or swage down to 5.51 using a sizer.

you should try smoothing out the choke with some 220 grit lapping compound on a patch. This might smoothen that area out so that the leading would diminish. I find this common to barrels, generally. I am beginning to wonder if "Choke" is a good thing.

Pete
 
Thanks; I am no gunsmith but I have tried lapping, very cautiously, using a cleaning rod fitted with an adaptor plus VFG Intensive felt - with a dab of Iosso. This has helped; extending the cleaning cycle from 50 to about 100 shots. Then the choke has to be cleaned; slivers of shiny lead can be seen on the cleaning patch.

I'm not really confident in what I'm doing, so I've quit while I'm ahead.
 
Iosso takes way too long

Thanks; I am no gunsmith but I have tried lapping, very cautiously, using a cleaning rod fitted with an adaptor plus VFG Intensive felt - with a dab of Iosso. This has helped; extending the cleaning cycle from 50 to about 100 shots. Then the choke has to be cleaned; slivers of shiny lead can be seen on the cleaning patch.

I'm not really confident in what I'm doing, so I've quit while I'm ahead.

Some Clover Brand 180 or 220 would speed things up for you. One is more smoothening up, rather than taking much metal off. It's fairly easy to develop a "Feel" for lapping using compound on a tight fitting patch. If you are careful and have good rod's, you won't likely hurt anything.

Pete
 
Last edited:
Thanks I'll try that, but maybe I'll experiment on an old barrel first.
 
Very careful lapping you don't want to exit the choke unless continually pushing through which might take a few years.

Found a decent batch from 2011 unavailable to Joe public issued to sponsored shooters. I now use straight from the tin and measure whats stated on the tin for a change.
In the past everything had opportunity to try has rarely measured whats stated on the lid since 2003. Whether labelled 4.53, 4.52, 4.51 they generally came in 4.47 to 4.48.
Groups were disgusting made up 11 barrels none any good, best pellets could find would leave 2"+ at 50 for many years. Size the good batches skirt 4.5 and became barely shootable 3/4". Not only were the weights from 7.2 to 8.8gr, they were all different lengths in same tins. With 2011 batch straight from tin untouched looking sub 1/4" over 80 shots testing flyers etc, big difference.

Even had same type of pellets chrono remarkably different best seen so far 70ft/sec lower and theyre not tight.
 
You are correct in assuming that pellets are not round. I have spent a lot of time with a laser micrometer and a 100x optical comparator measuring pellets. The most round pellets are maybe .0005" difference from largest area to smallest......and those are pretty rare.

Pellet head size is only one of many variables that may or may not make a pellet shoot well. I have 2 different lots (good shooting) of JSB 8.44's that shoot the same average scores over time indoors from the same setup and barrel. One lot has a rather large head (4.53+), and the other has a very small head (4.49-4.50). That pretty much throws out the idea that pellet head size is the determining factor for good shooting pellets.

I have also sorted pellets from the same lot into 3 categories from smallest to largest. I shot 10-12 cards with each category and could not detect any measurable difference. I also combined the largest with the smallest and could see no difference over time. For me, this dispelled the theory that removing the largest and smallest pellets from the mean group size will improve performance.

I have also made sizing dies of all types and never saw any improvement overall. If you look at a pellet that has been sized under a microscope.....it's ugly. It may be more round at the apex of the head.....but the big vertical flat wall section you made to coax it into a rounder shape does not scream performance. Testing backs up that impression.

Skirt diameters, skirt thicknesses, skirt angles, head dome radius, skirt cavity shape, pellet length, concentricity, and many more (along with head diameter) make up the differences from lot to lot. To point the finger at only one of these variables and deem it wholly responsible for accuracy does not make much sense to me.

The best thing you can do is find an indoor place to shoot, and begin doing your own testing in the most methodical manner you can. Don't do things like clean the barrel and shoot 3 different lots and sizes through. Clean the barrel in the same manner every time you change something. Barrel cleanliness (or dirtiness) or differing stages along the way will skew your interpretation of the results. I clean the barrel before every card, and am always surprised to hear that some get 100's of accurate shots between cleanings. H&N pellets are more tolerant of this.....but for AA and JSB with regular rifling barrels......accuracy degrades pretty quickly for me (35-40 shots max).

It is a very time consuming process to systematically evaluate anything. Most people (from what I have seen) are no where near patient enough to do it right, and they end up drawing false conclusions from their flawed tests. Those false conclusions, then, influence their thoughts about everything else that follows. You can see how that quickly turns into a slippery slope.

Mike
 
You are correct in assuming that pellets are not round. I have spent a lot of time with a laser micrometer and a 100x optical comparator measuring pellets. The most round pellets are maybe .0005" difference from largest area to smallest......and those are pretty rare.

Pellet head size is only one of many variables that may or may not make a pellet shoot well. I have 2 different lots (good shooting) of JSB 8.44's that shoot the same average scores over time indoors from the same setup and barrel. One lot has a rather large head (4.53+), and the other has a very small head (4.49-4.50). That pretty much throws out the idea that pellet head size is the determining factor for good shooting pellets.

I have also sorted pellets from the same lot into 3 categories from smallest to largest. I shot 10-12 cards with each category and could not detect any measurable difference. I also combined the largest with the smallest and could see no difference over time. For me, this dispelled the theory that removing the largest and smallest pellets from the mean group size will improve performance.

I have also made sizing dies of all types and never saw any improvement overall. If you look at a pellet that has been sized under a microscope.....it's ugly. It may be more round at the apex of the head.....but the big vertical flat wall section you made to coax it into a rounder shape does not scream performance. Testing backs up that impression.

Skirt diameters, skirt thicknesses, skirt angles, head dome radius, skirt cavity shape, pellet length, concentricity, and many more (along with head diameter) make up the differences from lot to lot. To point the finger at only one of these variables and deem it wholly responsible for accuracy does not make much sense to me.

The best thing you can do is find an indoor place to shoot, and begin doing your own testing in the most methodical manner you can. Don't do things like clean the barrel and shoot 3 different lots and sizes through. Clean the barrel in the same manner every time you change something. Barrel cleanliness (or dirtiness) or differing stages along the way will skew your interpretation of the results. I clean the barrel before every card, and am always surprised to hear that some get 100's of accurate shots between cleanings. H&N pellets are more tolerant of this.....but for AA and JSB with regular rifling barrels......accuracy degrades pretty quickly for me (35-40 shots max).

It is a very time consuming process to systematically evaluate anything. Most people (from what I have seen) are no where near patient enough to do it right, and they end up drawing false conclusions from their flawed tests. Those false conclusions, then, influence their thoughts about everything else that follows. You can see how that quickly turns into a slippery slope.

Mike

Wow. :) Copied for future reference.:)
 
Wow. :) Copied for future reference.:)

Yeah, that's a good post and it fits a lot of things we do in all types of shooting.

On sizing pellets...I don't shoot these things but I'm pretty sure that anything you do will be quckly changed when the rifle fires. Instantly...if you will...
 
Measuring Pellets

The head sizing plate (gadget) might deliver meaningful results for the average hunter or plinker; however, nowhere near the precision achieved with an airguage.

Air%20Gauge%20-%203_zpsm74tpggj.jpg


After many hours (weeks & days) of sorting by head size and weight that can improve your scores nothing works better than finding "the" pellet your gun likes if you can find them before Michael buys all of them.

Boomer
 
sizing pellets

In trying to understand the pros and cons of a plate gauge vs air gauge, and not knowing a thing about either and fully understanding that most barrels like specific diameters, I keep coming back to and asking myself the same question.............What are you really measuring?

I am not saying any method of pellet sizing really works OR DOES NOT. Then too let's not forget we have some pretty serious cards produced when shooting right out of the can. So these SIZE facts have me a bit confused.
Now, if we assume pellets are not round and they ARE not, you can't be measuring head size with an air gauge you have to be measuring the major diameter mass or a varying circumference. Is it the high side diameter giving you the gift of accuracy or the low?
Any experienced production manager or engineer knows that there are variations in everything. Drawings for dies have built in stated tolerances, they may or may not change per replacement order. What is the specific QC on the finished dies. Has or does the certs on the forming lead change? Does anybody know what they are or if they are maintained? How many dies contribute to a can? How many dies make up a lot? What is the specific configuration of the production of pellets?

As any truthful production manager knows more often than not tolerances come in second to production. So with this in mind I cannot get my head around head diameter alone being the controlling factor in producing extreme accuracy. Yet it seems to be the status quo. As Mike points out and confirms through testing MANY items tend to enter into the equation.
It seems reasonable that a good gun and pristine conditions would allow a shooter to determine what pellets/lots actually do shoot best. Who gives a good rats behind the reason. Then too these seemingly good lots that Mike keep buying up have variations within also.
My experience with Mike reveals he is a lot smarter than most of us think. He shoots more pellets, does more refined/diversified testing and gets more definitive results than anybody out there. My experience with the boy is simple, You can ignore his wisdom but if you do...... you will get beat by it.

On another note I do know through testing that a pellet of an exact land diameter( setting on the top of the lands) when fired and recovered .............has rifling marks on it.
This means to me that the head is being upset at firing, in fact it measures larger, or is it simply rattling down the bore with equal vigor.

Would somebody get me smart on this issue?

Frank
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I don't very often look at the yellow forum......but I was directed there the other day and while I was looking for something else, I came across this gem.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/thread/1435191416/An+Eye+Openning+Test+of+the+Pelletgage...

It was the highlight of that particular day for me.

The author of the blog was able to draw a definitive conclusion about pellet head size and impact on accuracy in just three groups.... probably shot outdoors from a turd rifle that hadn't been cleaned in a 'coons age.

Keep an eye on this guy. Amazing work.....and a fabulous example of controlled scientific procedure....;)

Mike
 
Once you mentioned it was on THAT forum, there was really nothing left to say.
 
Michael,

Thanks for sharing that with us. The problem now becomes: there goes another $98.00 + tax and shipping for two gauges (one each for .177 and .22 calibers) flying out of our account. But hey, at this point in time I can't see anything more worthwhile to spend the money on. And besides, $100.00+ is about the same as what I'd spend for a sleeve of either JSB or Air Arms pellets, but with this I can now be sure that I'll be able to wring the most out of each and every tin.

Of course, having said that, for you "Straight from the Tin" shooters I don't know how much you'll benefit from using one? Time will tell.

Thanks again for the share,

Dave
 
To be clear.....I was actually mocking the the ridiculous way the experiment was performed. I got a kick out of the unbelievably short term testing that was used in an uncontrolled environment.....yet, definitive conclusions were drawn.

I have no inclination one way or the other about the actual product itself.

Mike
 
Back
Top