One piece rest for all classes?

B

BobZ

Guest
I was asked in another thread, "Why do you think that a one piece rest gives and advantage?"
Before answering that question, I would like to acknowledge that...

1) One piece rest should be allowed in one or more classes in bench rest shooting, not in all classes.
2) There is a separation in this discussion between the World Org, and our newly defined air rifle classes for the U.S.
3) These new classes are totally different, in that they are for High power air rifle competition and have nothing to do with the world game, except for possible use of the same target and some of the rules. One cannot say that the existing World classes have a place in this discussion as they do not allow High Power rifles.
4) I have searched the Rimfire game rules and find that though one piece rest are allowed in some classes they are prohibited in others. For the purpose of this discussion we are talking about only the two classes pertaining to high power shooting. These new classes were created for those that own them and to attempt to bring in High power air rifles that constitute the majority of air rifle ownership in the U.S. These rifles are excluded from competition in fall when hit metal target shooting. These classes were created for "growing our sport".
5) I must acknowledge the truth that on any given Sunday a superior bench rest shooter with minimum equipment such as a leather non adjustable front rest can and have fired perfect targets at the World's and the winning score in other BR games including the use simple bean bags in the BR-50 competition some years back. There was no one piece rest used in these competitions.
6) There is not a lot of data in air rifle bench rest, to prove without a doubt that an 800.00 to 1250.00 one piece rest will give an advantage one way or another. Most of the other bench rest games have several classes to choose from, before joining the all out equipment classes. Rather than change our two High Power Classes, we can do what other games do (include a limited class for High Power air rifles). We could add a class for those who are not quite ready to lay out the big bucks.
7) If we feel that we do not have enough shooters at this time to add the third class we could exclude the one piece in the open class on a temporary basis and allow it in the Un-limited.
8) Finally to answer the question “WHY DO YOU FEEL THAT A ONE PIECE REST OFFERS AN ADVANTAGE?" One answer is... the majority of all the bench rest games have separated them from the two piece rest by class. There has to be a reason for this consensus in most BR games.
Second answer ... I cannot believe that any sane person would lay out $1,250.00 for any accessory unless he believed, without out a doubt, that on any given Sunday with two shooters of similar skill and equal equipment with experience in reading the wind, that the stability of the one piece rest has a good chance of one more 10 or one more X. Not many would spend the bucks for pretty or easy to move.

I have stated my opinion of a need for a High power class that excludes one piece rest. If you respond please start by stating if you are FOR or AGAINST a Limited class that excludes a one piece rest.

Also include suggestions on how we can make any changes. Since we have no elected rules committe or Board of Governors.

Bob Zimmerman
 
Personally I use both rests and I shoot a sidelever springer. The reason I use a one piece is that I dont want to screw up the bags on my two piece every time I cock the 30# side lever. If you want to be competitive on international matches your going to spend $750.00 to $1200.00 on the front rest and $100.00 to $250.00 on the rear bag, so whats the difference. There is no advantage for a one piece rest except less things to carry to the bench and Pack up at the end of the day along with wind flags and probes, stools, timers, cleaning equipment, air tanks for the PCP shooters, and anything else a shooter may need at the bench. Maybe when you shoot a match and you have to rotate benches between targets you may find that it helps.
 
Fred, answer the question.

Because of your own preferences do you think that there should or should not be a class for those who do not want the expense of a two piece rest. Should we not follow most other bench rest games that allow the two piece in some classes but almost all have a class for those who do not want to purchase one. A yes or no will do.

I am not trying to prevent those who want a two piece rest in some classes from competing with each other. But you seem to want to prevent those that do not, from having what they want and what is provided in most all bench rest competitions.

We are of course talking air guns and if you are competing with a one piece in air gun competition I would like to know where and which Orginization.

Thanks for the information, Please know that I want you have the opportunity to compete with a one piece rest.

Bob
 
Bob Z,
I ran a match today for 25 yard indoor Scoreline. 10 shooters 6 at HV and 2 for LV. The other 4 shot in USA-open class. Two because they were over 20 fpe and the other two because they used a one piece rest. Not the high end $$. So for the scoreline you can use your one piece in USA- springer, USA- Open, and USA-Unlimited. If you want to qualify for the World Postals in 2012 You can not use a one piece rest. (World Rules).

Dan Brown smoked us shooting off his 25 year old bags! 750 43X World targets! With his custom FX/ INDY/ TWIN home made.:p

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Franky one piece rest,

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Paul
 
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Paul

Thanks for your reply. I used to have access to an indoor range here in Houston.
We mostly used it for air pistol silhouette. Wish we still had access. Great scores!
I suspect that Dan would have done the deed perhaps a few more x's with a one piece
rest. He is most definately a serious and competant airgunner.

I never said that a leather front could not be the best of the best. I shoot by squeezing my rear bag and though I use a adj. front I do not use the mechanical parts.

You, like Fred did not answer the question about a class for high power shooters where one piece are not allowed. They of course would be allowed in one or more of the High power classes. The World matches we shot for qualification do not allow a one piece.

My contention is at least one class in the U.S High Power class should be without the one piece. This would provide something for everyone. Almost all of the Bench Rest shooting Orginizations do just that for Rimfire and High power.

Would you be for or against that.

Bob
 
Bob,
I Shoot both one and two piece rests. I see no advantage of one over the other. A good two piece cost more. Two years ago when Pinnacle mountain ran both rimfire and Airgun benchrest. I would shoot both with a front rest and rear bag because 3 gun rimfire didn't allow one piece rests. The next week I would run Unlimited Rimfire and AGBR Bechrest and use a one piece Pappas rest on both. If one piece were better everyone shooting the PSL and ARA would use them. Will have to do some research on this years nationals.
I am just glad Steve and Frank picked up where Ron (AGBR) dropped off and we have a game to play.

Paul
 
An Answer

Bob,

Your contention "is at least one class in the U.S High Power class should be without the one piece."

You are looking for an answer, my personal answer is no. One piece rests are not required, only allowed. as are front rests and simple front bags. Something for everyone.

You also believe that a one piece rest provides a competitive advantage and state that "I cannot believe that any sane person would lay out $1,250.00 for any accessory unless he believed, without out a doubt, that on any given Sunday with two shooters of similar skill and equal equipment with experience in reading the wind, that the stability of the one piece rest has a good chance of one more 10 or one more X."

Again, I disagree with your statement, especially the part about adding 10 or more Xs. So, we will agree to disagree.

You also want suggestions on how to make changes, "Since we have no elected rules committe or Board of Governors."

In a word, communicate. Starting this thread was a great start. This is exactly how we began the process of putting the USA Springer, Open and Unlimited classes together, along with the rules. The shooters voiced their opinions. In addition, there was a small group of very experienced shooters who provided feedback when there were conflicting opinions. Now, when opinions are given, it can be difficult, if not impossible, to make everyone happy. This is why the USA classes and rules will continue to be reviewed to ensure that they are meeting the needs of the vast majority of shooters.
 
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Paul, thank you for the kudos on Steve and I starting the USARBR. Many people are not aware of this fact. Steve and I chat daily and are amazed at how far you shooters have taken this group in such a short time. We benchrest shooters have changed air rifle shooting forever.
Our amazing success on a world level sez volumes about the quality and intellect of our shooters. It takes great people such as yourself with your constant input and exchange of ideas that make this thing work. As long as we stay focused on promoting accuracy and stay away from the BS associated with other air rifle forums this association will do fine...............We sincerly thank each and every one of you.

Frank
 
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Chris,

Your reply, quoting me as saying a one piece rest would produce 10 x's. Please re-read. I prefaced this "that the stability of the one piece rest has a good chance of one more 10 or one more X." with a summary that all other factors being equal. Shooter ability, gun accuracy and wind doping skills. We should definately have a class that allows one piece rest in my opinion.

The main point. other that a nut job spending 1250.00 for no advantage other than pretty or easy to move was...... why we would be different than most of the Shooting Oginizations that have at least one no one piece class, before they jump into the more money than God classes. If most of these groups do not allow them in one or more classes are they all as crazy as I am? Many of the High Power air gun owners do not have much more than the cost of a top of the line one piece invested in their rifle.

Even the WRABF Rimfire Rules do not allow a ONE PIECE REST. This is the orginization from which we spring. If I were rimfire shooter offering input to that group, I would suggest that they allow a class for the 800.00 to 1250.00 no advantage easy to move accessories. If we have any hope of having other member countries adapting some high power air rifle classes, I wonder what their opinions would be.

I am sorry not to be a believer.....It is simply not logical to say that the ONE Piece rest does not offer some sort of competitive advantage based on all of the groups that do not allow them in all classes, or that the cost of design and manufacturing and sale was based on having people purchase a pretty, no advantage, easy to move item.

Offering a choice of classes to the competitors seems be the best answer in my opinion. It is the answer of the majority of other orginizations.

I would also again thank you for your efforts in growing the sport. Dealing with crazy old men that do not agree on every decision comes with the territiory.

When you have seen the lights go out in the eyes of so many young family men who want to compete, when they look at 800.00 to 2400.00 for the rifle and 300 to 1200.00 for the scope, a couple of hundred for a rest. The when they see these shining pieces of metal costing another 800.00 to 1250.00 on the firing line, you must defy all logic and tell them not to worry. You do not have to have one of those. there just pretty, and easy to move from one bench to the next and do not offer any andvantage.

Bob
 
Bob,

My quoting your post was a simple copy and paste exercise. I did not manipulate anything. One more time, "I cannot believe that any sane person would lay out $1,250.00 for any accessory unless he believed, without out a doubt, that on any given Sunday with two shooters of similar skill and equal equipment with experience in reading the wind, that the stability of the one piece rest has a good chance of one more 10 or one more X." I do apologize if I, somehow, took your words out of context.

Again, we must agree to disagree on this point.

Yes, the rimfire organizations all do things in a different way. The ARA and PSL allow one piece rests, however, looking at the results will show a great deal of success with front rests and rear bags, in spite of the perceived flaws.

Our organization has air rifle classes that do not allow one piece rests, namely LV and HV. Those rifle classes follow our roots. We have set the new standard with the USA Open and Unlimited classes, so when, and if, other countries look at higher power air rifle classes, they can learn from our experiences, good or bad.

Lastly, my hope is that new shooters look to competitors, like Dan Brown, and become inspired by his feats, so when you tell them not to worry about all the shiny toys, they will truly believe.
 
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