On Electric Cars:

OK..... here's the way I did it :)

I'll try to provide cites, probably not always possible.

But first we'll examine the new envirobuzzword "sequester"......an old word that's been brought into the fore because rednecks is impressed by syllables. "To sequester" is to set aside or save, often in a hidden or out-of-sight fashion. Another synonym is to 'store.' Most people just say "store" as in "I've got some cash stored up for a rainy day".....but if you've an agenda to drive you use the word "sequester" because it sounds impressive. So, real world folks store up or "sequester" money for a while, then they spend it. SPENDING it shows it's worth, shows how much money you "sequestered."

Sequestered; https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sequester



We are carbon-based lifeforms, trees are carbon-based lifeforms. And crude oil is a distillation of this carbon. Over time sunlight has collected on this planet, some of it in the form of plants and animals...., this carbon-based life has died, broken down and distilled into an energy dense substance called crude oil which we've adapted for use as fuel. When this fuel is burned, you SPEND or release the sequestered energy........ just like draining your bank account. The real worth of the thing is realized when you cash it out.

OR, just burn the plants or animals before they leach down, and you'll still get some return.

But burning, spending, releasing or "getting the energy back" allows us to see how much energy is stored in the plants and animals.

ALL of this can be lumped into the catch-all "bio-mass"......... cuz that's what it IS. It's a good descriptor.

It's all fuel. It all can be "spent" and the output measured.

But gasoline fuel is more energy dense than fresh biomass, so we make a comparison..... gasoline against wood. We spend the sequestered energy and measure for results. How much wood to equal how much gas.

((BTW your lawn "sequesters" carbon too, and the brush along the fenceline..... it just gets spent quicker than a tree.....))

So, wood to gas;


Using today's numbers, real world it takes 90 tons of biomass to make 1 gallon of gasoline.

That's NINETY TONS of tree to render down into a gallon of gas.

easy-to-read cite : https://www.quora.com/How-many-dino...of-oil-or-how-many-gallons-from-each-dinosaur


I'm guessing a "big" pine in the op's area will come in around 30" diameter. (no cite, just a guess) which in my tree-farm logic brings a "big pine tree" in at around 16-18 tons of biomass.

A big pine tree can be rendered down to make about a quart of gas.....all costs aside, this is the GROSS fuel available in said big tree.....and all those big pine trees in history HAVE rendered down to make about a quart of fuel. It's taken a lot of trees to make our fuel reserves, millions of years worth of solar energy, collected underground. Unfortunately it takes more than a quart of gas to RENDER the tree.... but let's leave that aside for now :)

And if you instead "sequester it" (which really means, just save it for later) then you've "sequestered" about a quart of fuel.

BTW, we harvest trees here some....the entire West Coast is on about it's 4th cutting. That's 4 farm crops. No sentiment, no hugging of the old growth, it's a crop.

I had a logger over yesterday..... gonna' cut some.

And replant.

I've got 6 generations of trees on my property.

It's beautiful. I am blessed to live in a park.

Next door to me is a third gen bunch of hippies who were willed a section+ by their forebears. They dress period style and run a "sustainable farm" down along the road and pay for it by logging behind the ridges where the city folks can't see it. Based on this input, the neighbors on the other side of me got their parents to buy THEM a 27 acre piece so's they could 'live the dream."

Unfortunately, they didn't quite see the bigger picture..... They don't have 300 acres of (paid for, WORKED for) trees to farm..... They went into it with the staunch belief that "sustainable small farms" was a real deal. OOOPS....now they're welfare pukes, pure and simple, living from subsidy to subsidy and selling withered third world produce at local Farmer's Markets. The property looks like Afghanistan. I'm sad for their children.

And THIS is why I'm a conservative.

On a side note, I live in an affluent area.....consequently we get scammed a lot. They recently spent several million on a "biomass conversion facility" just up the road from me and got NOTHING back, not only didn't turn a profit but abandoned the facility once the money was spent. And now they're planning another one, a BIG one!!!

this one, now at 4 BILLION proposed cost....... now THAT'S gonna' set the planet back a piece! LOL https://www.opb.org/news/series/longview-energy-project/

On MY steenking fishing hole on MY beautiful river (with 31 hydro dams on it)

And I even picked a liberal cite, I must be getting "fair and balanced" in my dotage....
 
I saw first hand how the people of New Zealand "sequester". They clear cut(HARVEST) the pines(I think) every 21 years and replant for sustainable growth. I think most of the harvest is exported to Japan. Looks pretty cool seeing definite rows of new growth on some very steep side hills. They also generate most all of their electric with hydro from water that is "sequestered" in lakes. I think they export most of their coal reserves.

Thanks Al. That had to take a lot of time to compose that last post.

My motto is: EARTH FIRST..............WE'LL CRUSH THE OTHER PLANETS LATER............:cool::cool::cool:

Later
Dave
 
UR a national treasure! Really!!

Nahhh, our trees are a national treasure...

And BTW glp, I LOVE trees .... really. And the animals that go with it (although the animals really don't live in mature forest here in the West, they all migrate to the logged areas.) And I lied about not caring about harvesting them, my dad loved his milk cows too much and they cost him money. I love my trees. I've got a gnarly dead-topped 140ft fir on my driveway. It's gonna' be junk in a few yrs. And I've got a logger scheduled....But sometimes a Bald Eagle sets in the top. And a big old resident Redtail perty much uses it for his treestand....... and every now and then there'll be a Great Horned Owl on top of a nearby snag and a Great Grey in that fir and they mumble and grunt back and forth of an evening, like old guys bankfishing..... So I'll probably never cut it.

I've got a Grouse Ladder in my yard that causes endless agony, the lawn needs mowing right now and I'm already squinting thinking about running in under that bushy pile.... and I'm building a tractor shed, poured the foundation last week....and I've got two little 50 footers too close to the foundation... They'll crack the concrete in 10yrs...I need to cut 'em out but they're my pets and I don't want to.

But this is timber country. Fire country and timber country. And I can't count the times I've stopped to visit with "hikers" out enjoying nature, gurgling and braying over the "epic forest" and cursing the sin of clearcutting. Little do they know that they're invariably hiking an area that's already been clearcut. TWICE. And that they're enjoying a third crop of trees. Children Of The Corn out worshipping in Thee Cathedral Of Thee Trees....scared of bears....

Happily they're currently not afeared of beards like they useta' be.....

And fire country. My address is Yacolt WA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yacolt_Burn

Our kids are taught fire safety before swimming lessons, even before Hunter Ed. (Firearm Safety starts at birth)

And those neighbors? You think I'm joking? My south property line adjoins the Pomeroy Farm.... http://www.pomeroyfarm.org/ .... They serve caviar. And tea.

I live above the ridge in the pictures :) They nearly burnt me out a few yrs ago by leaving their slash piles unattended while they put on a weekend "Harvest Festival"..... While they were scything and stooking stunted grain for the tourists down on the tar road the wind picked up. I had to threaten them with "calling in the choppers" before they'd ride their horses out to the stable and sneak a truck up to check it out. THEN the fit hit the shan, they brodied back down the hill in a full-on 4-BY drift and opened the "big barn" (equipment shed) and rumbled the backhoes and D-8's out, shocking thee be-frocked and petticoated guests mightily. The ladies squealed and some would have mebbeso swooned, if they knew how.

Instead they all whipped out their smartphones to keep their collective jaws from falling off and soiling their crinolines.

And my blessed 12yr-old daughter got a round of attaboys for smelling smoke and reporting it NOW so's our jeep-and-quad squad could reconnoiter.

We broke out onto their clearcutting and I counted 5 different sets of open flame in about 3 seconds. Flames, in clear sunlight.

That's SCARY, open flame on the ridge opposite our home, in the middle of 7000 acres of timber.

They (we) got it stopped without "calling it in"...... took 57 people.
 
BTW... back to electric cars

There IS an upside!!!

The nukes are firing back up.

The people who actually make stuff work know perfectly well that we have neither the generating nor the carrying capacity for electromobiles. And IMO it'll end up being an endrun. We'll "HAVE TO use nukes to produce power because electric cars have become such a success!"

I struggle not to take advantage of stupid voters and stupid laws. It'd be so much easier to just take other people's money instead of working.....I told one of my sons, an engineering student, that if he moved out of state he should consider "marrying" his roommate(s) just to take advantage of all the new laws

He din't find any humor in that.
 
I saw first hand how the people of New Zealand "sequester". They clear cut(HARVEST) the pines(I think) every 21 years and replant for sustainable growth. I think most of the harvest is exported to Japan. Looks pretty cool seeing definite rows of new growth on some very steep side hills. They also generate most all of their electric with hydro from water that is "sequestered" in lakes. I think they export most of their coal reserves.

Thanks Al. That had to take a lot of time to compose that last post.

My motto is: EARTH FIRST..............WE'LL CRUSH THE OTHER PLANETS LATER............:cool::cool::cool:

Later
Dave

Around here they're shrinking the cycle time..... there's a piece just a mile down the road signed "Planted In 1984" that's ready to harvest. Of course the liberals and the farmers call it "garbage, force-grown timber" because they don't know any better

And the anti-GMO crowd..... (((LO-Freaky-NELL ..... there's a bunch of winners))) have got the trees on their list of hell-demons gonna' give us all cancerous growths..... like the homes built from the mutated timber attracts "radon" or something.

BTW, driving around this area there are thousands of clearcuts/timber operations going on all the time. It makes me sad every time I turn a corner and see another big blue hole. Until I remember to look around me and realize that hundreds of other holes are filling up around me, day-by-day. I turn the next corner and see towering trees and remember that just 20yrs ago THAT hillside was logged :)

And every time they're logged, the wildlife roll in like a tsunami.

And those gorgeous vistas of fireweed, lupine and foxglove. And the new growth.... and the blazing acres of Vine Maple, Mountain Huckleberries and Aspen, wound through with verdant purple strips of Mountain Blackcaps. And the SMELL......honeysuckle ain't in it.... the awesome smell of a 2yr-old clearcut. Those few yrs before the timber takes over are beautiful.
 
UR a national treasure! Really!!

To end my extended rant.... I'M SORRY for originally overreacting. It ain't personal. (Well, it's personal to me, but not aimed at you)

I'm touchy about libspeak. We've finally reached a point where the snowflakes are getting their way, beyond reason and against reason and I just FIGHT IT.

These school shootings make me sad, really sad. And YES, I think it's all connected. The ignorant feel-good mindset that allows "gun free zones" to be created is the actual cause of all these murders.

Cause and effect.

Freakonomics.

Didn't mean to unload in your particular yard.
 
Just read about this

They should look at what the Earth looks like where they take the lithium out of the ground that is used to make the batteries to power the electric car. Nothing environmental about an open pit lithium mine.

The Chinese are getting it out of Africa and the peasants there get it out of old copper mines and the like. There was a picture of some guys wheeling a bicycle with ore on it, to the Chinaman who buys it . So, we don't have to worry about the mining. We, like the rest of the world, don't worry about someone elses back yard. It sucks to get old and loose recall but, about 45% of the ore needed to make the goodies comes out of Africa the article said. WSJ, I think I read that in.

The thrust of the article was China is positioning to take over battery production.

Pete
 
A friend

There IS an upside!!!

The nukes are firing back up.

The people who actually make stuff work know perfectly well that we have neither the generating nor the carrying capacity for electromobiles. And IMO it'll end up being an endrun. We'll "HAVE TO use nukes to produce power because electric cars have become such a success!"

I struggle not to take advantage of stupid voters and stupid laws. It'd be so much easier to just take other people's money instead of working.....I told one of my sons, an engineering student, that if he moved out of state he should consider "marrying" his roommate(s) just to take advantage of all the new laws

He din't find any humor in that.

Who is an Iron Worker is working on a Nuke in South Carolina. Said they are building two there so Al is all over this.

Pete
 
True Mike

They should look at what the Earth looks like where they take the lithium out of the ground that is used to make the batteries to power the electric car. Nothing environmental about an open pit lithium mine.

but is there any real difference environmentally between a lithium strip mine and those digging coal, copper, aluminum, iron ores?
 
but is there any real difference environmentally between a lithium strip mine and those digging coal, copper, aluminum, iron ores?

Well, let's assume for now that "no, there's no difference" :)

Now it becomes a question of degree..... I WANT to live well. I've spent a lot of time in the dirt, freezing and I LOVE my civilized comforts. And I'm willing to use the (essentially non-renewable) resources of the planet to do it, to maintain my lifestyle.

So now, thinking long term I say "and I want my grandkids to live as well or even better than I've" (IMO we all feel this way but I'll speak only for myself)

Which brings me to "what is the answer for my grandkid's sake???"

We've got several options:

#1, CONSERVE.... but this doesn't satisfy the "lifestyle" requirement, instead it smacks of huddling in shared misery around the dwindling fire".......

#2, NEW TECH..... Ok, but there ain't BEEN no real tech for 50-80 yrs. This is currently a bleak outlook. I won't get into my personal beliefs here but suffice it to say that IMO we're at a tipping point in this regard. We need a shot in the arm.

Which brings me to my #3..... GET OFF THE ROCK!!! This is where a small part of me wants to believe "OK, I'm wrong! Elon Musk is NOT a scam artist, instead he's the smartest and far-sightedest human ever born...." I'd love to believe he's playing both ends against the middle here, to save humankind.....

But I just can't.

And I'm afeared that Average Joe Voter will NOT pull his head out of the sand until his extremities are burned off....

So I FIGHT for reason, for rational assessment of the world around us. It aint "political" it's preservation.
 
We're all hip on solar, wind power, and gas fired power plants, and never a word about hydro-electric. Hydro runs 24-7 unlike the other two feel good green sources that produce maybe 40% of the time.LaterDave
When I lived in upstate NY near the Canadian border we had Hydro Elec that was pretty cheap. After I built my house and put in baseboard heat, NY City decided that they needed that cheap Hydro to power their mass transit. My electric bill went through the roof the next winter and I tore out my fireplace and put in a Papa Bear wood stove. Heated my whole house with that..
 
Carbon

Al, I find your views on forest management refreshing. I know clear cuts are one of several approaches to stand management. It depends on your objective.

Given the results of fuel loading from natural causes like old stands dying out or heavy slash left by logging, there are limitations in holding or suppressing fire when the fuel loading is excessive.

All of the large fires from the early 20th century have been analysed many times over the years. Methods for reducing the effect or risk of major fires are a science.

The problem that started 40 or more years ago is the general public is totally against logging, which is a legitimate tool for addressing fuel loading.

All the carbon from those older burned trees that have been stored over the years is going right back into the air.

Wood smoke isn't good smoke, even though I love a campfire in the woods.

Mort
 
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To go back to EV, I 'd like to add a few things :


There was a Nissan buy back program of "leaf" cars in Phoenix because batteries were unable to face winter/summer huge temperature variation and quickly lost their charge holding/retaining ability.

In France we already have several EV which caugh fire for unexplained reason, buses, cars and lately kick scooters. One kick scooter recently exploded while charging in an apartment. Explosion was strong enough to break the wall separating 2 apartments.

Some E kick scooters were set on fire in Paris during riots some weeks ago. Firemen were not able to stop the fire of the Li-? battery cells. White smoke is highly toxic.

Last year, a burned EV was found near a loading port/dock in a underground parking lot in Paris. It seemed to be still, cold, fire finished. When the firemen try to move the wreck, they had to face several explosions and retreated. The fire caught on again and they were unable to kill it.

Battery's life appears limited to 4-6 years, meaning that a 6 yo EV value will be close to ZERO while a similarly old combustion V will still be of value. That fact is yet not included in any ROI calculation.

So called WLTP vehicle consumption standard is totally twisted in favor of hybrid type, whatever, and against standard internal combustion engine vehicle. This wltp cycle standard will claim a new almost 1000hp Honda nsx is a lower co2 emitter than any little 60 hp gasoline car, which obviously is totally false.

I know NO user of hybrid cars having a better mpg than my 16 yo diesel sw. But they are allowed to drive in Paris, I am not anymore because I am polluting and they are not despite burning +50% / +80% than I am.

Mad world.
 
To go back to EV, I 'd like to add a few things :


There was a Nissan buy back program of "leaf" cars in Phoenix because batteries were unable to face winter/summer huge temperature variation and quickly lost their charge holding/retaining ability.

In France we already have several EV which caugh fire for unexplained reason, buses, cars and lately kick scooters. One kick scooter recently exploded while charging in an apartment. Explosion was strong enough to break the wall separating 2 apartments.

Some E kick scooters were set on fire in Paris during riots some weeks ago. Firemen were not able to stop the fire of the Li-? battery cells. White smoke is highly toxic.

Last year, a burned EV was found near a loading port/dock in a underground parking lot in Paris. It seemed to be still, cold, fire finished. When the firemen try to move the wreck, they had to face several explosions and retreated. The fire caught on again and they were unable to kill it.

Battery's life appears limited to 4-6 years, meaning that a 6 yo EV value will be close to ZERO while a similarly old combustion V will still be of value. That fact is yet not included in any ROI calculation.

So called WLTP vehicle consumption standard is totally twisted in favor of hybrid type, whatever, and against standard internal combustion engine vehicle. This wltp cycle standard will claim a new almost 1000hp Honda nsx is a lower co2 emitter than any little 60 hp gasoline car, which obviously is totally false.

I know NO user of hybrid cars having a better mpg than my 16 yo diesel sw. But they are allowed to drive in Paris, I am not anymore because I am polluting and they are not despite burning +50% / +80% than I am.

Mad world.

Absolutely Correct My Italiand Friend.

And they're WINNING!!

And we're HELPING!!!

And yet there are shooters on this forum that support them.............. It's like the common folks that give them power.

Acros't the world 50% of the people are so unable to parse reality that they inadvertantly support the demise of good.

Mad, Mad World? It's a Sick Sick World when a so-called "man" can support an agenda which destroys his country and be applauded for it.

It ain't "Biden"... It ain't "Soros".... It ain't "Da Gub'mint".... It's the PEOPLE who vote paedo, we the people get exactly what we really want.
 
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